Help trying to figure out this scam....
Long time, semi-high volume seller here. Luckily I've never had to deal with this particular scam before but I'm looking for insight on how this was done as I'm left with my mind boggled! Quick run-down:
Buyer buys item on December 11 (Wentzville MO)
Received December 15 (Lancaster CA)
Buyer starts return for just didn't like December 15 (I have free returns)
Label sent to return December 15
Buyer ships December 18 (Lancaster CA was the acceptance scan)
Delivered scan January 2 (Wentzville MO)
Tracking number: 9302210582100052704601 (this is the one I purchased through ebay from USPS)
I didn't get the package so I went up to USPS this morning and found out that my label had been changed, please see the photo I've attached. However, they not only changed the delivery address to some random house in my area and the return address to a local city near mine, they also changed the tracking number to 9302210582100052702102. When I go track that number on USPS it shows that number is associated with a package that was delivered in New Jersey on December 22nd. So they kept my bar code. I'm baffled as to why they would use a bogus number, why not just keep my number on it as the delivery address was changed anyway. Also this person is a seller which kinda also boggles my mind. Thoughts?
I have reported everything to eBay and of course IC3 and USPS fraud, so I don't need anything with that information. I'm just looking for maybe insight on why this person would go through the trouble of changing the tracking number and using my bar code? Is it just trying to add an extra layer to this scam? Has anyone else ever dealt with this scam before? New Year is kicking off to a great start. 🙄
spreadlovelikefire
OP8 months agoI wanted to give a quick update as I just remember today to check up on the account that conducted this scam. After reporting to eBay, USPS, and IC3....the buyer/seller was kicked off. This is evidence that us sellers must always report and go the extra mile when we are legitimately scammed. Because eBay did investigate. I'm going to assume I wasn't the only seller who reported this buyer. But had I not, they'd more than likely still be doing this.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@spreadlovelikefire YESSSSSS!!!!! I love a scammer NARU like a shark loves blood. You're my hero of the day.
yo0339
·9 months agoYes, your post office will give you a photo of the package, and it's printed in halftone, a "newspaper" picture.
I ran after my mail carrier when only 2 of 3 packages were left on my porch. And he said he had delivered the first package across the street an hour ago but he ignored it when his phone changed the background color, a warning he was at the wrong GPS location for that tracking number.
So the USPS now has new software in the field that can detect and alert of some fake tracking scams: Namely
-- the GPS location where the mail carrier is making the fake tracking delivery does not match
-- the original address, my address which had been erased off of the label.
Also notice that the package is not always photographed while it is inside a USPS sorting machine.
sunshine*and*chocolate
·9 months agoI had the exact same situation last year. The buyer filed a return for an expensive pair of shoes and I never received them although the tracking showed as delivered . Had to obtain a picture from USPS, that package looked like a small envelope, definitely not a shoe box, and the address on the label was manually changed to some warehouse within the same zip code. I reported the case to ebay, contacted the buyer confronting them of fraud with no response, and escalated the return case to ebay. Ebay closed the case without issuing refund to the buyer.
gurlcat
·9 months ago@sunshine*and*chocolate NOICE!! You sure don't see that every day. Courtesy refunds to sellers after refunding the buyer, sure, but outright NO SOUP FOR YOU! to a scammer -if only there was a way to frame such a satisfying victory on the wall. 🤣
gurlcat
·9 months agoI don't even get the theory of selling 'live' items from a retailer (near or far) as pertinent to this return anyway. If any seller was doing something like that, then they'd KNOW why the return didn't get delivered to their eBay-registered address, and there wouldn't be any reason to start a post here about it.
a_c_green
·9 months agoScanning the bar code during Delivery is what will trigger the enforced refund, so they do need to keep your tracking number bar code intact. The scammer has altered the Return address, Ship-To: address and the readable tracking number digits in the hopes of obscuring everything else that could tie that package to your return case.
Unless things have improved very recently, one reason that the labels are so easy to alter and modify is that eBay applies no document protections to the PDF shipping and return labels. If they applied an Owner password to the label, the user could still view it and print it as-is, but could be blocked from modifying the text. (When a PDF document is password-protected, the document text is encrypted so that it cannot be modified with a text editor.)
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoThis is great to know, thank you!!!
ccomic
·9 months agoIn that case, why not just print it and rescan it?
a_c_green
·9 months agoYou can certainly do that, but once you scan the label, you have a rasterized image file, not an actual text document with either embedded or referenced fonts that can be used to change the address to some other location via editing. You can go even further and apply Optical Character Recognition to your scan to read and replace (or overlay) the original scanned text with new characters, but at this point we're way beyond what your typical doofus scammer is either willing or capable of doing.
I mean, we're not talking major crimes here, but eBay has exerted no effort toward setting document security on the shipping label that (1) has been available for PDF documents for many years already; it's nothing new, and (2) did not appear to be even understood by them on the one occasion at an eBay meetup when I tried valiantly to explain how they could fix the problem right now, with the tools they already had available to them:
babyers88
·9 months agoeasily bypassed, by printing, obscuring/changing it as desired, scan it and print it again.
a better way (maybe) would be a requirement that the label has to be printed by the carrier at the counter but that would make returns more difficult and there would have to be some kind of agreement with carriers. (a special code)
no easy fix
a_c_green
·9 months agoAgreed, if you're determined to do that. My point was that eBay isn't even trying to secure these labels (either outbound or return).
gurlcat
·9 months agoConsidering that scammy sellers are just as much (maybe more) of a problem than scammy buyers, and because eBay is always happy to inconvenience sellers more than buyers, this^ idea would surely entail sellers having to buy all our labels at the counter too. If that ever happens, I'm out. Immediate deal breaker.
EDIT: It would also make us pay full counter price for original and return labels, because the reason we get a discount is we're not burdening the carriers at the counter, requiring more personnel labor hours for them to pay.
babyers88
·9 months agoI don't think that would require full cost, it would however be inconvenient.
Ebay has always relied on some form of trust and still does until anyone buyer or seller proves themselves unworthy so there is no easy fix.
way back in the day we all had to wait for a check or money order in the mail and then wait for it to clear, that put a lot of trust on the seller......
It should also be noted that ebay will be more likely to help a victimized seller If you are in very good standing, they recognize that kind of stuff.
If you half @ss it around here they see that too.....
a_c_green
·9 months agoYou have that as an option on your Shipping form already: buy the label on-line but receive a QR code instead of a label to print. Scroll to the bottom of your Shipping form to find it:
You then bring the package to the counter, let them scan the QR code off your phone, and the label is printed right there.
gurlcat
·9 months agoYes but I would strongly suspect a small minority of sellers do it that way since it still involves waiting in line, same as if buying the label there. And if all sellers and buyers returning items were REQUIRED to do it (as the person I was replying to suggested), then it would absolutely add to post offices' customer service demands, which adds up to higher labor costs.
a_c_green
·9 months agoYes, I doubt that many sellers voluntarily do it that way, since it combines an at-home transaction with an in-person transaction. In other words, the former does not replace the latter when making a QR label purchase; it requires both. It is a good backup option, though, and if my printer ever bursts into flames while I'm trying to print labels, I know I can go the QR route instead and still get my shipments out.
I don't know that the PO would find it that much of a hindrance, really, as all they're doing is scanning a QR code, printing the label and slapping it on the package. The label is still pre-paid, so there is no time wasted on slogging through a payment transaction at the front desk.
Just as a data point: the staff at my PO is happy to see me coming in, because they know I'm not going to be someone bogging them down with a prolonged process of squinting at an address on a package, typing it in as part of the tracking data to be generated, then calculating payment, collecting it from the customer, etc. They take my package(s) one at a time, plop it on the scale, scan the barcode on the pre-paid label (*beep*), and it's done. My front-counter Acceptance process rarely takes more 30 seconds, even for multiple packages, and then I have my receipt and I'm out the door.
P.S. Just writing about it here reminds me of our local PO's Buyer From Hellâ„¢: an older guy who apparently has a good eBay business going, judging from the number of packages he brings in the door in a carrier bag, anywhere from 10 to 15 a day from what I've seen. The problem that has everyone grinding their teeth, though (and I mean both the USPS counter people and the other customers in line) is that he has no prepaid labels on his packages.
Every single package has to be processed manually by the clerk, one at a time: weigh and measure, then type in the addressee's name, address, city, state, ZIP. Often he manages to have a wrong or illegible ZIP, prompting further discussion and lookup to be sure that they had the right address typed in, etc. Finally we get to the end, and he pulls out a checkbook so he can write out his payment in longhand. Aaargh.
I know all the clerks well, so I asked them whether anyone has gently pointed out to him that he's wasting entire dollars per package this way, and a home printer would pay for itself in no time at the rate he's shipping out each day. (They don't have to point out to him that people in line are expiring of old age before he's done mailing; he's probably oblivious to that anyway.) No, he insists on doing this all his way. I just need to get to the PO before he does.
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoI was drinking water when I read "people in line are expiring of old age" and snorted it through my nose. You gotta warn a gal before you can be funny on the message boards!
I'm friends with all the local USPS peeps also, I just love them. When I'm in there I become one of them half the time, helping out others when they have questions and I'm waiting to scan my packages at the kiosk. One time I was behind a lady who decided to print off 350 pre-paid stamped envelopes at the kiosk. Normally they will only allow me to check in 5 pre-paids at a time at the desk because I'd have a line backed out to the parking lot otherwise, but that day they let me check them all in at the desk because I'm pretty sure that lady was there for an hour! Meanwhile, no one was in line. I get not wanting to deal with people, I'm a bit of a loner in that fashion, but if you are printing off enough postage to send out 350+ wedding invitations you may want to ask the clerk at the desk. Had it just been regular stamps it would have gone faster but she chose to do the pre-stamped envelopes and it took FOREVER!!! That was a few years ago, I bet she's still up there waiting.
Actually I just googled it and I don't think the pre-paid envelopes are a thing anymore. Maybe she was the deciding factor!
yo0339
·9 months agoeBay is already partially doing that, and has agreements with USPS and FedEx ...
... to print return labels at the counter by showing a QR code for the return label.
12345jamesstamps
·9 months agoYou have like 2200+ items for sale...maybe 5000+?
My thoughts are I can't imagine anyone having all these food items in their household.
Just a thought...but it looks like you are 'drop shopping' from a store.
So items are returned a store or something.
gurlcat
·9 months ago@12345jamesstamps The photographs were clearly all taken by the same camera on the same wooden surface. Not a dropshipper; items actually on-hand. Some people just have enviable amounts of space for inventory!
12345jamesstamps
·9 months ago'all taken by the same camera on the same wooden surface'....maybe a long time ago?
And store is nearby...I mean...if seller has 10+ for sale of each item...seller must live in a warehouse?
The ordering of an item which might be out of stock of a store and item will come from another store where the tracking might change....and same with returns.
My friend lives across the street from a Walmart...easy to take a photo of one and say I have 20 in stock which are in stock in a store and sell it(them) on eBay.
It was just an idea as to the tracking thing and just the thought of a drop shipper come up.
My thought is : where in a house to have 5000+ food items on hand?...certainly not your house.
And a storage place won't work from heat and cold...unless it's temperature controlled.
I moved from Chicago to L.A. to Vegas to San Francisco...having my items in storage...not one was temperature controlled.
Things like rodents...weather related inside from warm to cold...it's a warehouse or a store as to just my thought. But I could be wrong. But I might be right.
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoYou are wrong!!! If you notice that most of the candy I sell is seasonal. So the Christmas candy I sell is no longer in stores....but it is my home. I find it funny that you are so suspicious of someone running an eBay business when you have an eBay business yourself with nearly 5,000 listings. Granted yours are stamps but I have an entire store in my house. It takes me quite a while to file taxes as well as I do it all myself. I sell roughly 40 items a day. Sometimes more, yesterday I sold 52. And today isn't to shabby either. Either way, this isn't about my inventory, this is about a scam. I don't need to justify my business to you. Oh and you think my inventory is 5,000 food items? Please check my listings again because you are mistaken big time. I sell mostly undergarments, seasonal candy is the least of my inventory. So your theory is waaaaaaaaaay off.
gurlcat
·9 months agoTo be fair, James lives in San Francisco where housing is a bazillion bucks a square foot, so it's easy to imagine why he can't imagine having plenty of room for inventory in your own home. Heck my $845/mo Alabama rental house could easily accommodate your inventory, if not just in the spare bedroom then maybe some in the sun room and/or garage.
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoI get it! I live near St. Louis Missouri, we certainly do not have California prices here. We also have climate control basements, mine is finished. So my entire lower level is my business. I actually have way more room to store stuff than what I use. I don't even need to rent a storage unit for anything. Now my inventory is categorized all in my head so if I end up in the hospital my husband will have a grand time pulling product for shipping. My home is 4,000 SQFT. That doesn't include the basement, only the livable space. So I have plenty of room to store inventory, store listings, and live. His comment makes sense if he's from an area that the cost of living is much greater than where I'm located.
I actually calculated the ratio of how many of my listings are food items and it's less than 3% of all my inventory. So very minimal. The item this post was made about was some men's undershirts. I sell mostly underwear. My husband built me clothing racks that extend down from the ceiling and then I have one of those rolling staircases to reach them. So they are out of the way! And I have way more of those than I do candy.
a_c_green
·9 months agoI did something similar in our (unfinished) basement. While we don't live in a flood area, I figured our own plumbing system might rise up against us every now and then, so when I put storage racks in the basement, I suspended them from the overhead joists instead of standing them on the floor, leaving the floor itself clear of obstructions if it did decide to flood someday. (I do have storage tubs on the floor, but they're waterproof one-piece plastic with lids and can be picked up and moved anytime -- no cardboard boxes!)
As of our 27th year here, we've had about four floods I can remember (two burst water heaters, one A/C drain backup and a miscellaneous geyser through a clogged basement storm drain), and suffered no collateral damage.
simply-the-best-for-you
·9 months ago@spreadlovelikefire You don't have to justify it lol, it's clear to many of us that you have all that stock on hand. I don't see why anyone thinks that would be difficult. In my last house the basement was unfinished, over 2000 sq feet of storage space except for the furnace section. I know some sellers who literally have every single room of their house set up with shelving & have tens of thousands of items in literally every room of their homes. Lots of people have plenty of space. Your setup & inventory does not seem even a little bit unusual to me (well, except for the fact that the categorization is in your head lol). I'm jealous of your floor to ceiling setup & rolling staircase though, must be great to have a handy hubby😀
gurlcat
·9 months agoLOL I almost forget that basements are a thing, having lived more than half my life in the South. But I grew up in Iowa, and when I was 13 I absolutely couldn't bear sharing a little bedroom with my sister anymore, so I talked my parents into letting me move into the basement. I made that dingy hole my own, painted the walls and everything. To this day I miss it that earthy smell, steady temperature range, and near-cryosleep in the pitch darkness. I remember being a little scared the first few nights, then I thought "No, this is MY lair, I am the creature that lurks in it!"
babyers88
·9 months agolol. same here if something happens to me and I am unable to be the one to pack and ship, good luck to the person that is tasked with it. I know the location of everything for anyone else it will be a needle in a haystack.
hopefully I will at least be able to talk so I can tell them where to look.
gone.c-33
·9 months ago5000? Only 66 of OP’s listings are food items…
12345jamesstamps
·9 months agoOP I would imagine does this as a full time business...great...OP had(has) a 'great business plan'.
We usually don't get those who can pull off this kind of business here posting.
I commend you actually do this.
I mean, ships out 50 items a day as well...that's sounds full-time.
And I assume it takes money (to buy items) to make money.
To gone.c-33 :
'66 of OP's listings are food items'
This wasn't the point...I looked at Oreo packs...OP had 32 packs on hand to sell when posted
42 Cans of Hard Candy on hand to sell when posted
this is 72 items of only 2 listed items and OP has this in a house.
I just couldn't imagine all this in a house.
And I did make the statement : "But I could be wrong." in the reply.
Anyway, Kudos to the seller who can do this.
gurlcat
·9 months ago@12345jamesstamps You did indeed. As for the OP, sounds like she not only has plenty of space but also a very supportive spouse who probably does more to help than handyman stuff, so I for one am deep forest green with envy. I tried to get my teenage kid to onboard as a sort of apprentice, would have happily paid her (okay no I couldn't afford a real employee wage but at least something, on top of providing her room and board, LOL), but I would also be teaching her all the procedures and policies along the way, because I could so easily picture her sliding right into her own eBay career at 18, something so less stressful, more fun, and potentially more lucrative than anything else a kid could do. But nothing could convince her, and now she works like a slave, making profits for a corporation. -Ironically the same one I worked for at 18, Taco Bell. 🤣
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoI've been a full time seller since 2012, but sold part time since 2005. I had my son in 2015, it was great because I run my own business and was home! It allowed me to do that, and by 2015 it was running like a well oiled machine already. 2020 hit and my business quadrupled over night when those stimulus checks hit, it was insane. I would sell 100's of items a day. I could hardly keep up. The hubs would take my packages to the post office because it was just so so much. God love him! My kid is now 10. And he knows the ins and outs of eBay because he's grown up with it. So he knows how to package really well, I'm actually very impressed and thankful for that. He doesn't know how to pull inventory, I'll teach him one day if he asks. Some days I feel like this is the best business I could have ever dreamed of making, other days I wonder how it will eventually end because I will need to retire at some point. Who knows! With all the doomsday people, eBay has been going under since the early 2,000's....but we are still here! Cheers to everyone.
On a side note I started listing full time because I worked in the banking industry back when the housing market crashed in 2008. It was just awful. I am a disabled veteran as well and I couldn't sit at a desk job. I got laid off from one of the big banks in 2011 and felt relief and decided to go for it! And here I am. I've tried to quit, not gonna lie. I worked at my sons school the last 2 years full time while also selling full time but eBay makes waaaaaaaay more money than a school job. I think I just needed to change my relationship with eBay, which not having at the forefront of my every day life helped me do. I've been able to maintain that boundary since I quit the school. It's very easy to let it consume you when you are a business owner.
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoNope, they are in my home, I am not a drop shipper as you can see by my photos. I run a full business out of my home and I do it all by myself. This is my full time job. If you'd like I can take you on a tour of my eBay stock, lol.
lacemaker3
·9 months ago@spreadlovelikefire
Where did you get the picture? I assume that your post office gave it to you?
Did you ask why it is diagonal, like that? (I think that might be significant.)
It looks like an automated picture that was taken by the sorting machines. USPS uses machine reading and character recognition to generate scans from pictures like this, as the package goes through the sorting machines. Many (possibly most) scans are automated, not manual.
It looks as though the label was put on the package diagonally ... this might have been done to prevent the machines from being able to read the bar code, trying to force manual entry of the edited/false tracking number.
The label is very pixellated, but it also looks as though there are two x-shaped distortions in the bar code. Those may have been added to try to stop the bar code itself from being read, but I don't think it was successful. The real bar code was read, and the scans were generated as can be seen on the scan history.
There is a lost-mail-inquiry scan as well, which suggests that the label was messed up enough that USPS had some trouble reading it and directing it correctly.
The "buyer" may have tried to mess up the label enough that it would be lost, because the person who paid for the label (you the seller, in this case) will take the loss in that situation.
I'm pretty sure that if you do manage to retrieve that package, your item will not be inside it.
gurlcat
·9 months agoThat photo is just awful. I hope it's clearer to the OP (and to eBay employess) than it looks here.
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoIt's not clearer to me. The USPS lady said it was the best she could do because it's from the sorting machine. But she said it shows up clearer for them. So if USPS does actually investigate they can see it clearer. But both address on that label are erroneous. Both appear to be randomly selected. The return address on that label is from a city next to mine. What's even weirder is that this person used their actual eBay selling account. So for a minute I thought maybe this was a USPS scam, like maybe a worker or something. But I don't think that is the case. And then they just randomly put some tracking number that was delivered to New Jersey a few weeks ago and this person is from California.
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoThank you for this insight! This is why I posted this because I was trying hard to figure out the logistics of this scam and it makes more sense now. I was also wondering why it was diagonal. The picture is def from an electronic scan in the sorting machines. I had opened a package research case on it because it was held up. And it makes sense it was held up now that you pointed out the distortion. Thank you so much for this!
lacemaker3
·9 months ago@spreadlovelikefire
Can you see the zip+4 in the shipping address?
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoOn which label? The one from the picture (altered) or the label I sent through the return? The one from the label with the wrong tracking number is my zip code but the address is not mine.
gloryglorygifts
·9 months agoVery weird. Here's my thought. They purchased it for someone for a gift or whatever, opened a case to get a return label, changed the label to the recipient address and when it was delivered knows that ebay will make you refund it. So they got the item for free, and shipped it on your dime, to the person that it was intended.
I don't think the post office can keep up with all the scams out there. This is certainly a new one to me, whatever it is.
You will have to let us know what the USPS has to say when they contact you.
reallynicestamps
·9 months agoHowever, they not only changed the delivery address to some random house in my area and the return address to a local city near mine,
Google the address.
Go to the address (you say it is nearby) and ask for your package.
Best wishes.
slippinjimmy
·9 months agoThe "package" will almost certainly be empty or just contain some piece of (actual) garbage. That is how this scam works.
gurlcat
·9 months agoWhat would be the point, when the package won't contain the item? Just for evidence that the label was altered? I think the post office's photo is better since (theoretically) the OP could have done the altering.
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoUSPS wouldn't give me the persons actual address because it's a fraud, so they blocked it out. I can only see the street, no number. It won't be my package, it will be an empty envelope anyway.
adamcartwright
·9 months ago@spreadlovelikefire
It's amazing how they protect fraudsters.
gurlcat
·9 months agoUsually, yes. But I've got a good feeling about this one; the OP seems to be taking the bull by the horns and I think has a good chance here.
@spreadlovelikefire When you said you reported "everything" to eBay, did that include reporting the buyer for abusive behavior? You might already know this, but in a scam situation that report isn't just "for spite" -it can be a necessary document for eBay to consider when deciding what to do. Just like how your insurance company expects to see a police report for stolen property, even if there's little chance of the police catching the thief and recovering your items.
spreadlovelikefire
OP9 months agoYes! I reported everything. Not only that, I also contacted eBay on facebook where they refunded the buyer through them (I don't agree with it but at least it wasn't me) and they refunded my shipping label cost back to me. I also asked the rep to report them on their end as well. I filed the IC3, police, and the USPS report as well. Full photos with both tracking numbers and I even screen shot the tracking number they used on the package with my bar code, showing that one was delivered to New Jersey weeks ago. I'm not so much worried about any loss I may have had, I mean it was nice eBay didn't make me refund them half, I'm more wanting to protect others from this. So in a way I'm glad it happened to me and not a newer seller. This was post was more for information and trying to figure out what this person did. I so appreciate all the responses and thoughts. I'm glad the USPS lady gave me that photo, even though it's blurry but at least it has their stamp seal on it so when they go to investigate they an see that an associate has already looked into it. The lady said she was reporting it on her end also!
jonathanbrightlight
·9 months agoI have no real guess as to why they changed the tracking number, except that if they used a different label as the base, and just copied your barcode into it, it may not have been intentional, just careless and unimportant to them.