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Wrongfully removed item per VeRO
So today one of my items, a Swiss Tech backpack, was removed because Swiss Army Brands Inc. said it was counterfeit. First off, it’s not counterfeit. Second, who would even take the time to counterfeit a $25 backpack? Third, they aren’t even the same company as Swiss Tech. How can they do this? Why does eBay allow these companies to report items they don’t even own the rights to themselves??? I sent an email to the company’s email address that eBay provided, but I seriously doubt they will do anything. Is there any way to contact eBay about this? I’ve been a seller on eBay for 25 years with 100% positive feedback, but I’m seriously considering alternate platforms with all this VeRO crap. Very disappointed with eBay right now.
dbfolks166mt
·2 years agoThe VERO program and eBay's continually expanding list of prohibited items is one reason I diversified across multiple platforms and venues LONG ago. There are far too many other alternatives these days to even worry about this.
krazzykats
·3 years agoNew-sold by the original manufacturer or an authorized reseller. (Needs rewording, I know.)
Used-should cover the majority of second-hand items whether still in the original package or not.
Refurbished should also be under used.
This would also separate most of the large manufacturers from the rest of us...eBay could tailor ads to either new or used as well so I only see ads for vintage or used when searching. And if I want new, I would see only ads for new.
Almost like breaking the site into 2 without creating a separate site.
Might help break up the mess we have today of new and used items and ads all mixed up together...🤔
toomuchstuffagain35
·3 years agoebay can't even get their definition of new right.
In a lot of categories their only new definition is new with box. Do you have any idea how many cosmetics, shoes, slippers etc aren't sold in a "box"?
krazzykats
·3 years agoOpen box is used. Everything outside the manufacturer/distributor network is second hand. If you buy liquidation and it appears new with tags is still used.
Everything new is from the manufacturer or licensed distributors (thinking online retail stores: WM, etc.)
Everything else is used. Open box, new without tags, all that stuff.
It would split the site in half if what can be listed as new is actually brand new. Then we could unclutter some of the site, with only used ads on the used side, and new ads only on the new side, maybe a default that mixes it up.
There is way too much stuff online, and there needs to be a better way for everyone to sell. eBay New and eBay Used. But New needs to be reined in severely. Used can cover everything else.
stuff4divas
·3 years ago@trisport yea, with almost 2K listings, I don't see u going anywhere. Plus, u r one of the few 'old timers' that are left.
Just venting I assume, which I don't blame u, but so many sellers come here and say they are leaving and 99% never leave.
Keep fighting the VERO, I did some years back and won.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoOver the years I have had a couple of VERO takedowns that were inappropriate. The VERO program along with eBay's expanding list of restricted and prohibited items is what initially caused me to start using other platforms and venues. That along with the constantly increasing number of ecommerce sites has resulted in a large shift in my selling dynamics.
EBay used to constitute 100% of my sales but as a result of my diversification across other alternatives that percentage is now less than 20% on average. My buying habits have also spread across multiple platforms and venues to include returning to B&M stores. I am fortunate to live in a major metropolitan area where I am less than 5 miles from most major retailers, including several thrift stores. The rising shipping costs, along with other costs, simply make it cheaper for me to acquire items from local B&M stores rather than online. I can also physically examine items, acquire them immediately and return immediately without any hassle.
skeletonstore
·3 years agoI'm in the same boat. My listing will go bye bye for 3 weeks before it is re-instated. The same company attacked me last March. The only way to stop these bots I think is to drag them into court. This is of course illegal, to file a notice you know to be false. In my case that is absolutely true. I sent them a copy of my sales receipt proving I got the merchandise directly from their client. It would be nice if I could sue them for significantly more than I can make selling their stuff.
luckythewinner
·3 years agoWhy does eBay allow these companies to report items they don’t even own the rights to themselves
First, because eBay cannot possible be experts in the intellectual property status and licensing agreements of 1.5 billion listings. And second, because that is how the liability protection of the OSCILLA act under the DMCA is structured.
I sent an email to the company’s email address that eBay provided, but I seriously doubt they will do anything
If they do not do anything, then you can send an counter-notice to eBay and challenge Swiss Army Brands to sue you in court.
I’m seriously considering alternate platforms with all this VeRO crap
Most other platforms have a similar program to conform to the Oscilla act.
Second, who would even take the time to counterfeit a $25 backpack
It is possible that it could be your listing and not the actual item that violated Swiss Army Brands' IP rights. You may have used one of their trademarks or brand names inappropriately while describing youur item.
tabcu51
·3 years agoIt's the OCILLA act.
Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act
carolynnq
·3 years agoIf this is a used backpack, you *should* be able to list it. (But don't relist it now until you get this cleared up with the rightsholder and ebay.) I wish ebay would be more proactive about taking down items that can be sold under the first-sale doctrine. They should at least say something like, "If this item is being sold as used/preowned, under the first-sale doctrine the seller has the right to sell it unless this item was sold as a license to a particular individual." Ideally, they rightsholder should have to check a box certifying that the item is either listed as new or is an individual-license product before the complaint is allowed to go through.
On the other hand, if it the backpack is being sold as new, a Vero complaint is valid if you're not an authorized distributor. Most companies don't go after sellers selling the unopened gift they got for their birthday as new, but they could. Manufacturers have the right to protect their image. An unused product in an unopened box could have been stored improperly, it could have been a recalled product or second, etc. And it's unlikely that the warranty will be invalid once the product is sold, which can result in the buyers being unhappy with the company. (On Amazon, you can't list a product as "new" unless you first show amazon invoices from the manufacturer. If you're reselling an unused product, you have to go with "like new.")
mam98031
·3 years ago@trisport
I feel your pain. Back when I was selling fragrances I had a few Vero violations over the years. Ebay will NOT help you with these, you are on your own.
You must contact the Vero holder and work directly with them to appeal the violation. Their contact info should be in the email you got. If for any reason it is not, contact Ebay, they have to give you that info.
Then if you convince the Vero holder and they grant your appeal. The Vero holder has to contact Ebay on your behalf and remove the violation. Ebay won't do it on the word of a seller, it has to be the Vero holder.
This is a long and hard process. So stay strong. Good luck. It can be done, it just isn't an easy process.
theteamsetguy
·3 years ago@trisport ,
With the recent enactment of the Inform Consumers Act congress recently pass and signed by President Biden you will see much greater enforcement of counterfeiters on all platforms.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindustry/inform-consumers-act-aims-curb-online-sales-counterfeit-goods-2023-05-05/
rfmtm
·3 years agoNo one has a problem with curbing counterfeits, but currently it is the abuse take down of choice as it is hard to fight. Plus for non-VeRO take downs ebay offers no recourse at all for sellers to prove the item is authentic.
krazzykats
·3 years agoIs the backpack Swiss Tech or SwissTech all one word?
Swiss Army has a Victorinox Swiss Army Silver Tech pocket-type knife. Maybe the bot found those two words belonged to Swiss Army in your title?
rfmtm
·3 years agoVeRO is often abused, and the DMCA often misused, but still ebay gets to do what it wants. In a nutshell, when a VeRO member requests it, eBay removes an item in question, whether it has to legally or not.
Note that the actual DMCA law applies to copyright violations only. Authenticity and trademark abuse are not covered by the DMCA for web site removal under the law. It's eBay's own policy that extends the DMCA like behavior to this. The downside is that as a result you don't get the DMCA mandated remedies for people who abuse it.
Best you can do now is figure out what triggered the take down, and was it valid. First step is to contact the VeRO member and if no response, call ebay. Usually unless this is your main item of business, it is not worth the fight to relist one item and risk further trouble. Of course this is what VeRO abusers count on.
However, if it is clear abuse you have the right file in your local federal court, and here the loser pays the winner's court fees and up to trebled damages. Many have done this and won, even without an attorney, and once eBay's legal department is notified of the outcome, they leave you alone. Still, hardly worth it unless you have damages and it is affecting your ongoing business.
Many have also found a simple letter from their attorney to the VeRO member with a copy to ebay's legal department, quickly gets an abuser to back down. You also can file a counter-notice yourself, but it really only has legal standing in copyright issues, but ebay will still consider it for all VeRO issues.
funfinds122
·2 years agoThere is Nominative Fair Use that is the First Amendment Right, and there’s also the First Sale Doctrine. Both apply to the trademarks.
Unavailable member
·2 years agoIf you had an item taken down by a Vero rights owner, take the issue up with them instead of digging up a thread from May of 2023.
Thanks
kh-laura
·2 years agoHi everyone,
Due to the age of this thread, it has been closed to further replies. Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to continue to discuss this topic.
Thank you for understanding.
tech_time_shawano
·3 years agoThis is a new tactic being used to keep corporations rich and pretty soon a new law will need to be passed to keep everything from being owned by them. No more artistic freedom because something looks similar or is being resold. I'm currently having my designs stolen on another platform, I won't say which (it's Etsy). I have proof 2 shops owned by the same person are involved in the theft of thousands of digital download designs and then they turn around and claim copyright infringement on the original designer.
It seems we can't even sell legitimate things without someone getting jealous, or interfering somehow. Don't give up, against everyone's advice here I would reword the listing, its usually AI and bots looking for keywords, maybe don't even include the brand name and include a link to their site? hmmm... maybe there is a way around it, but I doubt you will ever get a solution from eBay or even especially from the brand.
Sorry but the legal crap almost never works out in the small business owner's or seller's favor. Honestly, they are more like threats than anything. Really sorry that this is happening, I hope it works out for you, I wouldn't really blame eBay though as frustrating as I would be in your position. Just don't go to Etsy lol.
kensgiftshop
·3 years agoChina will counterfeit anything if they think they can sell a few of them.
slippinjimmy
·3 years agoWhy eBay? When a company files a copyright infringement claim against eBay, eBay has absolutely no choice but to remove the listing. If they do not then they would be liable for any infringement by the seller.
This is the way the Digital Millennium Copyright Act works. The DMCA was passed by congress in 1998 so your disappointment should be directed at the Company that made the claim and your elected representatives who wrote the Act.
FYI - You can file a counter-notice against the company, if they fail to respond you can get eBay to reinstate your listing and remove the violation from your file.
For information on counter-notices just Google.
tabcu51
·3 years agoPlease be careful before filing counter claims...
The DMCA requires your service provider to notify you promptly when it removes any of your content because of a takedown notice, and you have the right to submit a counter-notice asking that the material be put back up. There is no specific time limit for submitting a counter-notice, but you should not delay unreasonably in doing so. If you send a counter-notice, your online service provider is required to replace the disputed content unless the complaining party sues you within fourteen business days of your sending the counter-notice. (Your service provider may replace the disputed material after ten business days if the complaining party has not filed a lawsuit, but it is required to replace it within fourteen business days.)
Therefore if the complaining party has a good infringement claim, sending a counter-notice may trigger a lawsuit. If you are not prepared to stand up for your use of the copyright owner's work in a lawsuit, you should think twice about firing back a counter-notice.
rfmtm
·3 years agoNote that the actual DMCA law applies to copyright violations only. Authenticity and trademark abuse are not covered by the DMCA for web site removal under the law. It's eBay's own policy that extends the DMCA like behavior to this. The downside is that as a result you don't get the DMCA mandated remedies for people who abuse it.
Also in cases like this a counter notice has no legal standing against a counterfeit claim, however ebay use to, and may still, see it as a positive defense and require the VeRO member to further prove their claim. So filing one may at least serve to get your strike removed, if the VeRO member does not provide further and/or acceptable evidence to support their claim.
brightlightbookseller
·3 years agoYou can use the contact information in the email you received to plead your case to Swiss Army Brands and see if they will retract. They don't have to, but it could mean bad publicity if they're found to be doing this regularly, so they might be willing to. Don't relist unless you get a message from eBay that the VeRO complaint has been resolved/retracted.
caldreamer
·3 years agoManufacturers hire online company that uses bots to search ALL selling platforms to find counterfeit items or violations. Some times item is removed because it can only be sold by authorized dealers.
Do not relist this item...because EBAY may terminate your account.
secondlifetreasures-llc
·3 years agoThe VeRO program enables greedy corporations to eliminate competition by removing listings of their products forcing consumers to purchase directly from them and for more money. It's a shady tactic, but we can't really do much about it.
theteamsetguy
·3 years ago@secondlifetreasures-llc ,
It's not about forcing consumers to buy directly from them as the companies fears second hand sales cheapens their brands in addition to the big counterfeit problem.
rfmtm
·3 years agoThat's too bad, but unless the company has won a court order preventing resale, as very few have, seller has the right to sell any authentic legally obtained item, second hand or not, and this is nothing more than the abuse of the VeRO program.
farmalljr
·3 years agoYou can sell whatever you want as long as it's legal. You CAN NOT sell something as NEW if you are not authorized to. First sale doctrine has nothing to do with or afford protections to selling something as NEW.
New implies you can honor warranties or promises. You can't do that unless you have a relationship with the manufacture.
I really don' care how anyone feels about the statement, it's the truth and reality of the situation. You are offering a buyer a fake warranty, a fake product, if you can't back up the guarantee on the package. Huge difference between "new" and all other conditions. HUGE.
rfmtm
·3 years agoIf you had to be "authorized" then half the listings on ebay need to be removed. Wouldn't all these companies love that. Granted the sale doctrine doesn't address this specifically, but neither does any other law. The very few companies that went to court over this got rulings that only pertained to them and their specific products.
If you have legal reference otherwise, please post a link.
farmalljr
·3 years agoIt's not my job to post references to legal cases, nor is it my job to be anyone's lawyer. If you want legal advice, pay a lawyer.
It does not make what I said any less true. Having a hissy fit because of how you feel, makes no legal difference. You can't sell "new" unless you are authorized. Just because some companies haven't pursued it doesn't make it legal or right for you to list something wrong.
At some point, those listings MAY be pulled. It depends on how aggressive the brands want to be. If they do, you have no legal foot to stand on. Spend your money and take it to court. It's a sure way to get an education.
rfmtm
·3 years agoPerhaps you should be telling ebay about this. As their legal department feels differently and has set the venue up to list items as "new" without being authorized. Yes, some companies have followed the "dunkin donut" route and won a claim their item is no longer new when not authorized, but others have not prevailed in court in and seller items have been reinstated.
powell-collectibles
·2 years agoIt’s complicated. The OP was likely selling the backpack as new. If truly new items from that company are only through authorized distributors, then they can have that listing pulled if the OP is not one of those authorized distributors. If the OP had listed as new/other, or used, likely not a problem.
funfinds122
·2 years agoThere is the First Sale Doctrine but no one gives a hoot.