Why does eBay allow fraudulent Limited Edition listings?
Some unsavory sellers list non-limited items as Limited Edition, probably to get it sold faster or to get a higher price. eBay takes no action when you report these listings, which I would think would make them legally complicit in the fraud. Anyone have insight as to why eBay allows this to go on? How can sellers combat this? It seems the only option right now is for us to also partake in the fraud by also listing our non-limited items as Limited Edition.
Here is an example of an item which has been fraudulent listed for a couple months:
RARE Robert Graham FIELD OF GOLD Shirt Mens M Floral Long Sleeve LIMITED EDITION
This item (in size large) has sold with tags attached twice since November for under $100 each time. This listing is pre-owned and the seller is offering a "deal" at over $200. This would not be a crazy # if this were truly limited edition but this item is not embroidered with "Limited Edition", is unnumbered, was not limited in production, and does not have the high quality buttons or level of embroidery/pattern an educated buyer/seller would expect of a limited edition shirt. However, this is a scam that might just work on an unsophisticated buyer.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoAlso, there is an expectation of higher levels of quality from Robert Graham's limited edition shirts than their normal shirts. From that perspective it's comparable to Ralph Lauren Purple Label vs regular Ralph Lauren.
If some guy buys this shirt for $200+ thinking he bought a limited edition shirt, what's his recourse going to be if he runs across me in a year or 2 and I break the news to him that his shirt isn't actually limited edition. Pretty much he's screwed, in large part because eBay has fraudulent listings.
inhawaii
·2 years agoEvery single item you buy is "limited edition".
A bag of Doritos, a tire for your car, a bar of soap.
They are all limited, limited to the amount that the factory can produce.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoI don't understand the point of your post. If there is a demand for 1 million bags of a certain bag of chips and the factory maxes out its production at 10 million bags, then you consider that a limited edition bag of chips?
Compare that to RG's Draco's Dream which has just came on the market for $1298. It is limited to a production run of 192 shirts and is already sold out of sizes XS, S, M, L, and 2XL. When Draco's Dream runs out of shirts they will not make a new batch of the shirt as a potato chip factory would do with their "limited" bags of chips (whatever that means).
inhawaii
·2 years agoJust trying to point out that there is NO product that is truly "unlimited".
They are all limited.
192 of the shirts you discussed.
A bag of Doritos, I'm not sure what the number is, but I know there IS a limit.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoThat's not what limited edition means though. It simply means that they have put a limit on production and once it sells out it will never be produced again. It's completely different than bags of chips, many of which have continued to be produced for my entire lifetime.
bashort
·2 years agoso what does "limited edition" mean? Probably the only way that ebay would pay any attention to someone claiming a item is not really limited edition is if the reports were coming from buyers or the rights holder.
bashort
·2 years agoThe only thing that matters is are the buyers happy with the item.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoExactly, and when they find out they didn't buy exactly what they thought they were buying they may not be happy just like I'm not happy with the fake autograph memorobilia I bought off eBay but I guess based on what I've read in this thread this is somehow good for eBay's bottom-line.
reallynicestamps
·2 years agoApparently this manufacturer does produce "limited editions"that are truely limited.
The have Limited Edition embroidered on the inner yoke.
They are numbered.
And the runs are pretty short.
Here's an example. https://www.ebay.ca/itm/375094856950?itmmeta=01HQE5WGY28VY4ABWCJRHR71AQ&hash=item5755654cf6:g:6UMAAOSwW8hlaoYz&itmprp=enc%3AAQAIAAAA0L6QgyMkJJtK%2BfCFBzLDsXGjI5y%2BX%2F1LVxZ1fSdKobe6Yh6xAwBktxhjuTa65LPDzLubWlt2CGsajnSiwPpPBKbahDPBrnGe%2Frej58uJ6pJ%2FtbpbmqgfsJT8ru9iua8WY8WB%2BpXp8cOP7uclTfx2UdslmJJnV98VTDFoyPjapHYt9eE6bVibbl8wyZTOtVjfnHyDuqbWVqwvgD0B4%2BQeVmx4rhXYhpePpQB2%2FGp19dDVu75500wSZJ1EBtduoJ0wIADuzhOgP34%2FbzAJmMvn6QI%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR46P8sW7Yw
A bit flashy, but not outrageously expensive, for a mass produced item.
bennotbill
·2 years agoIs this that much different to all those items that have "Very Rare" or similar in the title?
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoThat's another issue of credibility, but at least there is an argument to be made that "very rare" could be subjective. That is not a case with these Limited Edition shirts. If they don't say Limited Edition in them and are not numbered then they are not Limited Edition. There is nothing subjective about that whatsoever. Some sellers are just looking to scam people for a few bucks.
frankenhobbit
·2 years agoAnyone dumb enough to buy into 'Limited Edition' anything is prey to scammers.
Shirts are never 'limited'. I just cannot fathom that.
Food, ammo, fuel. medicine? Yes, I can see those as limited. But a shirt?
And even for shirts, effectively there is a free 30 day return policy, despite whatever policy a seller may have on their listing.
I guess that's one of the reasons I don't sell shirts!
onefootflipper
·2 years agoLimited Edition is really a buzzword that is most often meaningless. In my many years of selling collectibles I have noticed that a lot of "limited edition" runs are seemingly no smaller than what is normal for the manufacturer. Indeed what I have found is most common is that they often don't even make the entire limited run. This shows up all the time when you go to research an item and find that every known example has a serial number in the first half, first 1/3rd or even first 10 percent of the so called run size.
It is also extremely difficult to come up with any strategy that will cause something to actually sell on ebay over value. If adding limited edition to the title worked then you would see that everywhere.
That shirt hasn't sold because it is priced too high, period, it is a medium, which is a huge devaluation in any sort of men's clothing on the secondary market. Mediums might be a common highly sold size for mall brand shirts and in Wal-Mart but a huge portion of those adult mediums are going to children / young teens. I don't know what the real statistics are but I just know on the secondary clothing market the larger the size the better and the smaller it is the harder it is to sell.
1786davycrockett
·2 years ago@onefootflipper
"Limited Edition is really a buzzword that is most often meaningless. In my many years of selling collectibles I have noticed that a lot of "limited edition" runs are seemingly no smaller than what is normal for the manufacturer."
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Marvel Comics was notorious for publishing numerous "limited edition" comic books, usually with press runs of 1.8 million copies -- which was basically the press run of most of their "high end" comic book titles.
Nevertheless, the comic book "geeks" would swarm into my store every Friday, to purchase multiple copies of everything that Stan Lee was shucking, with his promises that each new item was "guaranteed to be a future collector's item!"
And today I see boxes of these "limited edition" Marvel Comics at flea markets, garage sales and comic book conventions, staring forlornly from inside their Mylar bags, begging to be adopted by a new generation of unwary and ignorant "limited edition" collectors.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoRegardless of whether the shirt sells or the strategy of adding limited edition to non-limited items works, it's a scam and it clutters up the system making it more difficult for buyers to find the items we are looking for.
Incorrectly listed items should have no place on eBay and eBay needs to do a better job of providing a trustworthy marketplace. As I previously stated, it's one thing for eBay to not be proactive about this, but it's a completely different situation when they choose to ignore reports of very obvious fraudulent listings.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoThese shirts are absolutely limited. Why would you post something that is so patently false? Please remove your comment from this thread.
broto_64
·2 years agoI believe you are wasting your time, this borders on nitpicking seller's listings and if we go down this path we will soon find our own listings being reported for all sorts of trifling little itty bitty details.
There are a lot of listings that we can call out for minor errors, some and perhaps most of these errors are even intentional and the seller most certainly knew what they were doing, but plainly put ebay doesn't normally concern itself with these lower forms of fraud.
There is more to it, the reasons for reporting a listing are numerous and one little error in the reporting reason can cause a report to be rejected as invalid by the bots...
That said, I don't recommend doing what these sellers are doing because it opens up those sales to cases for return due to reason "Item Not as Described" but many sellers on ebay are not well informed on policy. Our best defense is read up on policy, stay informed and mind our own business.
reallynicestamps
·2 years agobut this item is not embroidered with "Limited Edition",
There is a brand names "Limited Edition" ,although I'm not sure what they make.
This item (in size large) has sold with tags attached twice since November for under $100 each time.
If this is the same shirt, then the buyers were sophisticated enough to spot the problem after delivery and get a refund.
I agree that fake claims of limited editions are rampart everywhere. The most annoying are collector plates where the edition is "limited" to how many the manufacturer can sell.
is unnumbered, was not limited in production,
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoSorry, I meant other sellers sold this same item twice, not listed at limited edition, and the market rate for this shirt new with tags was $99 or less. Truthfully it could sell for a bit more than that, but this seller previously listed this item around $400 (pre-owned) which is the price that limited editions start at new ($398). It's very clear this seller is familiar with limited edition prices and is just looking for a sucker.
inhawaii
·2 years agoEbay does not have the time or manpower to investigate every "limited edition" listing to make sure that it is in fact a limited edition. There are millions of them.
Ebay has a MBG (money back guarantee) in place. If the buyer buys a item described as a limited edition and feels it is not a limited edition, they may return it for a full refund.
onefootflipper
·2 years agoSpecifically looking at the "offending" store I am going to have to double down on my original incompetent seller theory. There is nothing in their store to indicate that they know what they are doing in any way. They seem to guess all their prices and sell very little despite their massive feedback total.
Why not send them a message and ask what the serial number on the shirt is?
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoGreat advice, and I did contact the seller and stated that the shirt was not limited edition. The seller's response was that it was limited on eBay because they had not seen another on the site. So I then re-iterated that the shirt is not limited edition and mentioned that I had just sold the same shirt on eBay less than a month earlier. The seller's response: "good for you." BTW, at that time the seller had the listing on "sale" for over $300 (a pre-owned shirt that sells for $100 new).
I do contact members to inform them if there listing is in the wrong category or mistakenly states Limited Edition. Their responses are generally pretty telling about their intentions. I've heard of other collectors getting cursed out just for bringing this issue up.
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 years agoEbay's chosen means of enforcement is not the means you have chosen to use.
The size of this site is such that this method is economically not feasible. It is also not feasible on larger marketplaces, and not used.
No change is likely to occur. Even in the day when such actions were performed, the seller who reported the problem was not told what if any action was being taken.
onefootflipper
·2 years agoI didn't even know limited edition shirts were a thing.
I don't think you can fool anyone into buying $200 shirts.
Issue could just as easily simply be the seller hitting sell similar off another listing.
Worrying about what your competition does will not make you one dime.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoThere is nothing wrong with buying a $200 shirt. Yesterday I bought a shirt for over $1000 and then I bought 3 more for $400/each. If all are authentic then I paid fair market value for each of these shirts, and potentially even got a good deal. The issue is using false information to drive the price of an item higher. Limited Edition RGs are far more collectible than shirts that aren't limited. There's really no argument to be made against that.
People making fraudulent listings are not my competition. I am not a business. I am just a guy that collects shirt. I have purchased shirts from all of the top RG shirt sellers on eBay and I haven't seen any of the top sellers partake in such fraudulent activity. The poster mentioned in OP, while a big seller overall, is only selling this single RG item. Most of these scammers are smaller accounts and hardly competition for anyone, but they are ruining eBay for us buyers. I have searches setup to send me notifications when Limited Edition shirts are posted. In the past year+ I have purchased over 100 Limited Edition shirts on eBay alone. These fraudulent listings make that process much more difficult. This is the sort of thing I expect on non-reputable selling platforms, not eBay.
onefootflipper
·2 years agoI never said there was anything wrong with buying $200 shirts, I said I don't think you are going to fool anyone into doing it. A $200 shirt is a very niche market with expert customers.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoNot true at all though. You said it yourself that you didn't even realize that Limited Edition shirts were a thing. That's the case with many people before they start collecting. Then they go out and meet someone wearing a limited edition shirt and it's the most amazing thing they've ever seen, and then they go on eBay and start adding Limited Edition shirts to their watchlist expecting a similar level of quality and exclusivity to what they saw IRL, but it's only sometime after they receive their purchase that they assumed they were buying at a very reasonable price that they realize they've been duped. Sadly they may never realize that they paid a full 3x market rate for their shirt simply because they thought it was Limited Edition.
bonjourami
·2 years ago'they go on eBay and start adding Limited Edition shirts to their watchlist expecting a similar level of quality and exclusivity to what they saw IRL, but it's only sometime after they receive their purchase that they assumed they were buying at a very reasonable price that they realize they've been duped."
Buyers have long term protection, besides Ebays thirty day MBG, they then have six months to file a case at PP or their cc.
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 years agoIt is unlikely that any action will be taken if it was not sold and multiple INAD claims against the seller were not made.
Too many listings to determine whether listings are accurate in advance, and AI is never doing to know enough to handle this either.
Ebay has learned it is too expensive to listen to tattle-tails and they may not be correct.
bonjourami
·2 years agoI expect, because you also sell shirts, that Ebay sees your reports as just another disgruntled seller trying to get rid of the competition. Buyers are protected by Ebays thirty day MBG, and if enough of them complain and open a snad case, the seller will eventually be suspended. Its not up to you to protect prospective buyers.You could try reporting these sales to the mgfr, but they would have to join VERO to get the listings removed.Theres nothing else you can do.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoThank you for that insight. In the past year+ (since i started collecting them) I have sold 138 shirts. However, I have bought ~350 Robert Graham shirts on eBay (plus other brands of shirts). I've also purchased that same # of shirts off eBay as well and have definitely been much more of a buyer than I am a seller. I would hope that eBay would take all claims seriously regardless of the fact that I've chosen to sell most of these shirts on eBay rather than directly to other collectors.
1786davycrockett
·2 years ago@robertgrahamfan
One of the main problems with what you are requesting, is that there is NOBODY at eBay qualified to determine the differences between a LIMITED EDITION shirt, and a regular edition shirt.
As has been mentioned previously, it is up to the manufacturer to file a VERO complaint through eBay.
In addition -- the Chinese markets are FLOODING eBay with counterfeit merchandise, and eBay can't keep up with the daily avalanche of new phony listings being added on an hourly basis.
If a buyer is dissatisfied with the the description of a purchase, they can always open up a NAD case against the seller.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoWhy wouldn't they have someone qualified to tell the difference on staff? It literally takes less than a minute to figure out. If it doesn't say Limited Edition and isn't #'ed then it's not a Limited Edition Robert Graham shirt. That shouldn't be difficult for a multi-billion dollar company.
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoand by "doesn't say Limited Edition" what I'm referring to is that Limited Edition Robert Graham shirts literally have Limited Edition embroidered on them. All of them do except for cross promotions with other brands like Marvel, Star Trek, etc and those shirts are numbered.
1786davycrockett
·2 years ago@robertgrahamfan
"Why wouldn't they have someone qualified to tell the difference on staff? It literally takes less than a minute to figure out. If it doesn't say Limited Edition and isn't #'ed then it's not a Limited Edition Robert Graham shirt. That shouldn't be difficult for a multi-billion dollar company."
What you are asking is unrealistic -- for eBay to hire an individual to somehow examine whether each and every Robert Graham shirt listed on eBay is authentic.
Why stop there? How about eBay hiring another individual to examine each edition of Ernest Hemingway books? Or another individual to examine Beatles records? Or another individual to examine Beanie Babies? Or another individual to examine Spiderman comic books?
And so on, and so on, and so on -- eBay will take care of the unemployment problem across the United States, by simply hiring individual "specialists" for each and every item on eBay -- and, no doubt, fly them around the world at eBay's expense, to verify the description of each item in foreign countries.
Oh, well -- it would certainly give eBay more reasons to raise seller fees, wouldn't it?
robertgrahamfan
OP2 years agoWhat you have posted is indeed unrealistic but not what I'm asking for at all. All I'm asking is that when someone reports an obviously fraudulent listing as fraudulent that eBay has supplied a staff member with under 1 minute of training OR appropriate reference material, so that the staff member (who is already employed, and already handles reported items) can properly handle it.
Why is that too much for a reputable platform to handle? Reminds me of a shirt I bought covered in stains. The listing didn't mention the stains. I returned the item and the seller relisted the item again without mentioning the stains. I reported that listing and eBay took no action and so another buyer ended up buying a stain covered shirt. How is this ok? It's ok because it cuts into eBay's margins somewhat? eBay is a 22 billion dollar company and should have the resources necessary to handle obvious cases of fraud like this when they arise.
soh.maryl
·2 years agoWhen/if anyone reports an issue with a listing to eBay, how does eBay know this is a legitimate complaint vs a disgruntled seller who sells the same things and is just trying to get rid of the competition, one seller at a time?
As you know, every buyer on eBay has the MBG if/when an item that is not as described is received.
1786davycrockett
·2 years ago@robertgrahamfan
"All I'm asking is that when someone reports an obviously fraudulent listing as fraudulent that eBay has supplied a staff member with under 1 minute of training OR appropriate reference material, so that the staff member (who is already employed, and already handles reported items) can properly handle it."
Do you really believe that "1 minute of training or appropriate reference material" is going to be sufficient to educate a single eBay employee to learn the difference between authentic Robert Graham shirts versus phony Robert Graham shirts?
And why should eBay provide this training to a single individual, for a single manufacturer's item?
What you are suggesting is that eBay should provide an employee training program to detect phony merchandise that includes millions of separate, individual items -- just in case someone claims that one of those items is not legitimate.
Furthermore, what you are suggesting is that this particular eBay "specialist" somehow be able to verify the legitimacy of items, simply based upon a photograph. That type of "verification" is so open to fraud as to be unbelievable.
Finally, most eBay employees are NOT qualified experts in ANY field -- ask any eBay seller who has ever had to deal with eBay's BIZARRE "item descriptions" policies, or the eBay book catalogue, or postcards, or trading cards, or phonograph records, or DVDs, or glassware, or actually ANYTHING.
Because eBay's employees are largely computer "techies" and accountants -- they have little to no expertise in collectibles and collecting.
reallynicestamps
·2 years agoeBay will take care of the unemployment problem across the United States, by simply hiring individual "specialists" for each and every item on eBay --
Won't work
In January 2024, the unemployment rate was 3.7 percent for the third month in a row. The rate has been within the range of 3.4 percent and 3.8 percent since February 2022. That's down a bit from 14.7% in April 2020.
You'll have to stop deporting immigrants to find enough people. Those 8 million deported in 2023 would be a great help in this.
1786davycrockett
·2 years ago@reallynicestamps
"You'll have to stop deporting immigrants to find enough people. Those 8 million deported in 2023 would be a great help in this."
No argument from me -- everywhere I go (including the post office), there are signs posted, stating "We are hiring."