Thwarted a High-Value Scam Attempt
This was a sale and attempted theft back in November on a $2300 item. I waited this long to tell the story in case any of the usual suspects here wanted to try to figure out who bought it and give them some helpful advice.
I sold a HP LTO8 tape library with a full set of 30TB tapes. It was a parts or not working item listed with no returns. The drive itself was tested and fully functional with low hours. The library robotic mechanism had a problem with the elevator, could have been a motor or sensor. Most of the time it worked, sometimes it didn't and would have an error. Restarting would solve the problem for a while. The LTO8 drive module was the most valuable part and it has been my experience that certain eBay buyers try to scam tape drives all the time. I have those buyers on my BBL.
Two days after the buyer received the package, he opened a return request claiming the drive is bad. I reply through the return message thing that the drive that was sent to him is not bad and that I'm not going to let him swap my drive or return a drive with the head stolen out of it. He replies that it didn't work and he took it to a computer repair place and they tested it and made a report that the drive is bad. I told him to upload a photo of the report showing the name of the repair place and drive serial number. He did not.
I did what most people probably do when someone tries to rip them off, researched his name and address. The buyer lives at the shipping address, is not a US citizen, works for a tech company in NC on a work visa. I also spoke with an attorney. The attorney confirmed that the eBay return system appears deliberately designed to screw sellers and the only way to deal with this buyer was to take it out of eBay's hands. Because eBay will allow you to send your own return label to a buyer, arrangements were made to have the package received by an employee at the magistrate court if the buyer chose to send it back.
I replied to the buyer that I know he is counting on eBay deciding in his favor and allowing him to steal my drive, but that is not what is going to happen. I told him the terms of the sale are for parts and no returns and he does not have my permission to return the item, but because eBay will automatically take his side, a return label will be sent. I told him the return label was for a magistrate court where the returned item will be opened and inspected by a sheriff or police officer. If any parts were missing or swapped, he could expect to be charged with whatever crimes apply.
I granted the return on the last day possible, uploaded a FedEx label addressed to the court, and never heard from the buyer again, never got a return and eBay closed it. Before the return was closed, the buyer had the tape library - minus the drive and the tapes - listed for sale for parts or not working. His description was something along the lines of "missing drive, untested" selling in auction format. I considered having someone buy it just so he could no longer have my library with my serial number to ever send back, but someone did bid on it.
Yes, I know a real, experienced scammer would have been using a fake name and address and would have sent it back and probably succeeded. An appeal and police report would eventually see eBay return my money though. Or, he could have sent it back in the same condition to get his money back and try the scam on someone else. I believe he gave up because it probably isn't good to get charged with stuff while here on a work visa.
ed8108
·3 years agoHelping to keep ebay safe
thanks for your investment of time & effort in bringing this matter forward for potential review by a non interested party for a determination.
ed8108
·3 years agoSome people argue there are effectively 3 entities having interests within a transaction.
Seller, buyer, ebay
mn467462
·3 years agoThat would make me quit entirely. I don't sell high priced items. I don't sell anything that I can't fit into my PO's drop box, because I don't wait in lines. But honestly, if you're selling high ticket items like that, you should get out of the reselling game entirely, and just buy ebay stock, and let your money work for you.
fashunu4eeuh
·3 years agoâ€. I waited this long to tell the story in case any of the usual suspects here wanted to try to figure out who bought it and give them some helpful advice.â€
You believe a regular poster here would want to aid a fraudster, and conspire to rip you off, to prove a point? Go to the trouble of somehow figuring out who a buyer is when all buyers’ privacy is an eBay guarded secret? When sharing contact information can be a violation of the rules? I don’t know—seems like a stretch to me.
sumsum70
OP3 years agoA believe some, somewhat regular posters who like to argue for the sake of arguing or insist things that are not true are will go to great lengths to accomplish their goal. Again, this is the nature of public message boards.
This is not directed at any specific poster that I have any specific problem with, just an observation. I post occasionally, but read a lot.
stuff4divas
·3 years ago@sumsum70 So happy to hear you worked out a way to thwart a would be thief.
As far as anyone saying using a different return address is not allowed, I know personally that is not true.
You are correct in saying sellers are allowed to send their own label, as opposed to an eBay label.
Two times in the 10+ years I've been selling, I had to change the return address bc I was out of town and my friend accepted the returns for me. All other times I've used eBay return labels.
Don't let anyone make u feel wrong or bad about what u did. You fought for what you believed in, and in my eyes, that makes you brave and smart.
Congratulations!
inhawaii
·3 years agoI'm not sure how experienced of a seller you are and what your risk levels are but you do realize that ANY buyer can get a free item and a full refund from you by simply filing a false claim?
I would never sell a $2300 item here. Not even a $230 item.
But I'm glad it worked out for you.
sumsum70
OP3 years agoHigh value stuff is common in the categories I sell in. I have sold individual items and quantities of items in the $5000 range a few times. Most of the buyers of the expensive things are companies that either appreciate a good deal or need something that can't be purchased new anymore. I have very few return requests, even fewer returns that are actually bad (seems eBay culture is to lie about INAD for free shipping) and have only been ripped off twice out of several attempts, both under $1000. One for a swapped board and fully removed serial labels, another for a tape drive that was opened and had the head removed. Sadly, both of these examples are from still-active, larger eBay sellers.
Sometimes returns are never sent back when the return is granted with the message, "you will be returning part xxxx with serial number xxxx". And then they get put on BBL.
isaiah53-57
·3 years agoMaybe its time you practiced what you preach then - Maybe you should list some high dollar items and discover what the REAL problems on this site are - The advise you so love to give is designed for people who sell $10 items on a Part-time basis who would otherwise "be watching reruns". Can you imagine what this site would look like if sellers only listed $2 to $10 items like you do to keep their risk down? Who would ever come here? The Dollar Store of the internet - How fun...
traditonalproducts
·3 years agoanother example of a high-ticket item and the issues that go along with it. I don't go there far to risky for me. Good Luck with your outcome.
ms.rodriguez*
·3 years agoSo you altered the returned shipping label and put in a wrong address and zipcode. So even if the buyer did return it to the court and the item shows delivered and the buyer tells ebay that you deliberately sent the wrong information, I would think that ebay would give the buyer the full refund. Ebay would see that the tracking zipcode is not your zipcode. Maybe this buyer was not a citizen or someone in his home was not a citizen. You were lucky that he did not ship the item. I don't think that ebay is going to listen to anyone from a court somewhere in the USA. The system is automated most of the time. Don't get me wrong. Anytime that a seller prevails over a scammer, I am delighted.
Goodluck on your future sales and do not forget to block this buyer.
sumsum70
OP3 years agoThere was nothing altered about it. eBay gives you an option to upload your own shipping label. This option was used to make sure eBay had nothing to do with the return, that the item could only be returned to a specific person at a court.
If the buyer would have returned it, there were two possible outcomes. 1) The item is exactly as it was when sold, buyer ends up getting a refund and I retest and resell. 2) The item is returned with missing or different parts, buyer gets charged with fraud or theft or whatever.
The entire procedure was to make sure the buyer realized that possible outcome #2 was not worth getting $2300 from eBay.
If you send someone a return label and the buyer uses that label, it doesn't matter where you choose to send it. eBay sees the label that I uploaded and records the tracking number. Eventually, the tracking number shows delivered or the buyer never shipped the item. It is as simple as that. Earlier this year I accidentally put the wrong shipping label on two parts that ship in the same type of box. Fortunately, both buyers were totally cool. I sent them return labels to each other, they shipped and I gave them $10 for their inconvenience. Bottom line, there is nothing wrong with a return going to the address you intended to send it to.
maxine*j
·3 years agoI am glad you are happy with the outcome.
But I must say that your attorney reminds me of an eBay CSR, just telling you what you want to hear. The system certainly favors the buyer, for obvious reasons, but to say that it is "deliberately designed to screw sellers" is unreasoned. Also, did he hope that if you took it out or eBay's hands, you'd put it into his?
I'm glad I never sold anything in the high-scam categories, that's for sure, because if I had had to go through stuff like this, I wouldn't have chosen to sell at all.
sumsum70
OP3 years agoI don't think deliberately designed to screw sellers is inaccurate. There is no real option except agree to return or eBay automatically closes in buyer's favor. Begrudgingly hold ankles or be assaulted, same choice.
gone.c-33
·3 years agoAt the risk of being called a “scammer sympathizerâ€â€¦
Or maybe the buyer truly had an issue with his purchase, had no intentions to scam you and would have sent back exactly what he had received but was bullied into closing his dispute, not being familiar with the US legal system and believing a seller could charge him with a crime.
That could explain why he listed the item without the bad drive, which was his reason for filing SNAD, to recoup some of his money. A real scammer would just have listed the whole lot hoping it would become the new buyer’s problem…
maxine*j
·3 years agoMy thoughts, too. I'd have to hear both sides of this story to have an opinion.
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sumsum70
OP3 years agoAlso, eBay likes to use USPS for return labels. If you sell something in a 36x24x8 box weighing 48lbs and a buyer wants to return, letting eBay send a label is the worst thing you can do unless you like getting getting charged $100 to return something that FedEx sent to the buyer for like $40.
But the strategy was for the buyer to realize he is actually returning to a court where it really was going to be opened by a cop of sheriff and if he chose to not return and file a chargeback, the failure to return when a return label was provided would have been the basis for other recovery efforts.
stainlessenginecovers
·3 years agoCurious how you are able to 'change' your 'return' address when you have to already have a 'return address' on file with eBay?
sumsum70
OP3 years agoYou get to upload your own shipping label. If you let eBay do it, eBay uses the return address you have listed on eBay. Upload your own label, it goes to whatever address you want.
stainlessenginecovers
·3 years agoYou don't have a choice as to 'what or who' creates a 'shipping label' when a buyer opens a 'Not As Described' so again; doesn't make any sense that you were able to 'change the return address'.......
sumsum70
OP3 years agoNo offense, but you're killing me with the shipping label stuff. Next time you grant a return, look at the very next page that pops up. eBay gives you the choice to let eBay send the buyer a return label and charge you for it or UPLOAD YOUR OWN LABEL.
The label you upload is what the buyer gets. So in this case, a label was created shipping from the buyer to the magistrate in FedEx Ship Manager, label generated and saved as JPG. Then choose the button, upload label, select file. Then eBay's return page asks for the tracking number and carrier. Send. Done.
I have uploaded my own label a few times when the return was for something large or heavy. eBay should make return labels using the same carrier that was used to ship to the buyer, but they probably have some sort of scheme to make money on returns by always sending USPS return labels.
stainlessenginecovers
·3 years agoThat is absolutely NOT how it works; I don't have ANY options to 'change' anything; especially on an NAD return. The ONLY way that happens is
a.) you are NOT a business doing business on ebay
b.) you DON'T have 'automated returns' (which most DO)
sumsum70
OP3 years agoI'm not going to keep arguing about the shipping label upload option. I don't have automated returns. I don't want people to think I welcome returns, because I don't. When someone opens a return request for any reason, I can accept return, depending on reason deny return, send buyer a message or do nothing and wait for ebay to autoscrew me and count it as a defect. If I choose accept return, the next step is to let eBay send a label or upload my own.
This absolutely IS how it works when someone opens a return for anything I sell.
doc-holmes
·3 years agoI'm glad you were able to prevail, but I'm not sure why you thought anyone on these forums would want to assist the scammer. I'm also not sure what their not being a US citizen has to do with anything.
sumsum70
OP3 years agoI'm also not sure what their not being a US citizen has to do with anything.
The last sentence of my post is what it has to do with. It's probably not beneficial to be charged with crimes when you are here on a work visa.
12345jamesstamps
·3 years agoI understand you totally living in San Francisco...as a wedding planning dealing with those in the tech industry working for a high profile company which I won't name them but when you get a call from them using a company phone and my phone shows what company they are calling from....
sumsum70
OP3 years agoAnd I don't know why someone would want to help a scammer either, but there are people who like to champion the eBay propaganda that buyers always get what they want, cost of doing business, etc. It is not outside the realm of possibility that had I posted this real-time, someone would want to see the buyer win.
12345jamesstamps
·3 years agoAs a wedding planner dealing with some not being a US citizen who pay with a credit card I understand fully and I live in San Francisco where many in the tech world are employed.
downunder-61
·3 years agoI also thought that, not a very complimentary term to those who give time freely to assist as be we can.
I waited this long to tell the story in case any of the usual suspects here wanted to try to figure out who bought it and give them some helpful advice. WOW, just WOW and also not a US citizen, shame on me
sumsum70
OP3 years agoAs stated previously - I believe he gave up because it probably isn't good to get charged with stuff while here on a work visa. THIS is the significance of "not a US citizen". Stop trying to make it mean something else.
Also as stated previously - It is not outside the realm of possibility that had I posted this real-time, someone would want to see the buyer win. THIS is a fact of posting things on public message boards. No rational person can disagree with this.
Stop taking snippets of things out of context to be controversial when there is no underlying basis for it.
gone.c-33
·3 years agoDid you mention any of that in your exchanges with the buyer?
sumsum70
OP3 years agoThe content of my back and forth with the buyer was only to dispute his claim, request proof of his bogus repair company nonsense and to tell him how things were going to go if he sent back something with missing or swapped parts. It would have been unwise to reveal to him that his name, address and social media posts gave his employer, country, photos and more. I never let him know how much I knew, just kept it about the item and that scamming would not be tolerated.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoBe glad the buyer went the eBay route and didn't open a INAD chargeback. The buyer probably would have won the chargeback and most CC companies do not require the buyer to return the item.
sumsum70
OP3 years agoIf he went that route, I had no problem going to NC and personally suing him. Cost would not matter. I don't accept getting ripped off as a "cost of doing business" as so many people say here. It doesn't need to happen and wouldn't happen happen if bad buyers had any fear of consequences.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoIf he went that route, I had no problem going to NC and personally suing him. Cost would not matter. I don't accept getting ripped off as a "cost of doing business" as so many people say here. It doesn't need to happen and wouldn't happen happen if bad buyers had any fear of consequences.
I am glad this worked out for you. Given your willingness to fight for this type of thing part of me wishes the buyer had gone the chargeback route. The current federal laws that protect the consumers are based on a different era and are in desperate need of revision and some legal precedence to start that process. Until somebody actually challenges the laws and process merchants are going to continue to be ripped off. It has become a multi billion dollar problem that the CC companies as well as the merchants despise.