Selling Across Borders: My Warning
I am writing this as a warning. If you are a new seller or even an experienced one, and you plan on selling across borders, I would highly recommend against it. Ebay does not have anything solid in place to protect sellers from malicious buyers. And when these malicious buyers are overseas, it makes thing so much more complicated, expensive, and time consuming.
I have been on Ebay since 1998 and have been selling since 2000. I am not a big seller, just someone selling a few household items and hobby related items here and there.
Through Ebay's IM, around September 6th, I was asked by a Canadian buyer to sell him a lb of expensive paint pigment. I have never sold across borders before but after him prodding me, I agreed to sell.
I created a listing for him for the 1 lb of pigment for $109.00. This included the shipping to his location in Canada.
He bought the item and I sent it to him. Two weeks later he claims the item was "not as described". This was a lie, of course, because I had sold this same item over 50 times on Etsy and Ebay (only in the USA) in the last five years. I have never had a complaint on this item or any other item I have sold.
I called customer service and they said I either needed to issue him a refund and have him keep the item or send him a shipping label. On that same call, I asked Ebay to check his account to see if this person is a malicious buyer and to see if he has a history of doing this. Due to the fact that I knew it was the proper item and the fact that he had begged me so much to list it for sale to Canada, I was already suspicious. They said this person has a "very high defect rate" where they are constantly reporting items as "not as described".
Turns out what he is doing is buying an item from a US seller, and 9 times out of 10, the US seller will not make him return it because of the price of buying a return label from Canada to the USA, so the US seller just gives them their money back. That is what my Canadian buyer was hoping for. Instead, I was the 1 out of 10 that required the item back in its original condition before I would issue a refund.
Because the buyer was in Canada, I was having trouble buying a return label. Ebay wouldn't allow me to create a label on their site because the buyer was in Canada, even though the item went through Ebay's clearinghouse first when I sent it to him originally. I went to Pirateship.com, USPS.com, and even signed up for the Canadian Postal Service. The Canadian service let me create an account, but whenever I went to the site and logged in, it said "technical error". Pirateship and USPS would not let me create a return label even if I tried to trick the system, because the receiver was in Canada and they don't allow labels from a foreign country to the USA.
I called Ebay and they said that if I couldn't create a label then they would create one for me and send it to him and bill my account. I said "do that". They said "we have to wait five days". So I called them back in five days and the customer service rep said "we can't create this label because the buyer is in Canada". So, Ebay customer service doesn't know what they are talking about half the time.
I finally figured out how to create a label by tricking the UPS.com site and then I sent him the label. The label cost me $31.00.
He sent my item back, and the second it hit my doorstep at 8:45 PM, Ebay refunded his money back to him before I even had a chance to look in the box!
I was furious, but I opened the package while recording with my phone and the buyer had sent me back a bag of sand.
I then opened an appeal with Ebay and they had my sign an affidavit that my pictures were accurate. I offered them the video but they didn't want it.
Ebay refunded my $109.00, but my request for reimbursement for the cost of return shipping for my item from Canada was refused. At least initially. I sent them a letter of their own policy for reimbursement for bad buyers and they said that "because I have been on Ebay for so long selling, they would reimburse my $31.00".
So, I got all my money back, including the return shipping label I had to buy for Mr. Canada.
However, I spent hours figuring out 1) how to navigate a return case to a foreign country, 2) how to create a return label, 3) how to navigate a proper appeal after they had returned his money to him.
I know people can create these types of fake, malicious returns in the USA. But Ebay actually has a lot more protection and the process is much more streamlined than dealing with a foreign country. This makes sense to me because I have never had a malicious buyer in the USA for as long as I can remember. And I never sold overseas before this, but now all the sudden my item is "not as described"?
It is definitely not worth selling across borders. If you sell overseas, it will probably be a successful sale. But for every 10 successful sales, you will deal with one malicious buyer because these buyers have this down as an art! They know how hard it is to navigate a return overseas, and thus as a seller you will be more likely to capitulate and just give them the money back and let them keep the item and take the loss.
You are more likely to deal with these types of buyers overseas because of the time and expense involved for sellers.
Another thing: Ebay's customer service is not trained to deal with cases like this. Every time I called, I got a different story on what I needed to do, and different promises of what they would reimburse or not reimburse regarding malicious buyers.
Also, remember how I said earlier that Ebay returned their money the second UPS e-mailed notification that the package hit my door? Well, I e-mailed their customer service this morning and asked if they would make the buyer reimburse Ebay for the money Ebay reimbursed for my item (109.00) due to the fact that I proved that he sent back a bag of sand. They said "no", and that the buyer "got to keep all his money".
So, another issue is that Ebay rewards malicious buyers by letting them return junk on the seller's dime (which means they keep the original item) AND claws the money out of the sellers account to give to the malicious buyer!
I also asked if the buyer was going to be banned and they said that if people don't fill out enough complaints against these types of buyers, there is nothing Ebay can do about them. Most sellers are just wanting to get their transaction done and move on, so they let malicious buyers keep the item and their money. The vast majority of sellers would have given up after spending 2 hours of their time on this international crud. I thought it was important to see this to the end because this guy is just going to keep ripping off US sellers and keep getting free stuff.
I will be filing a complaint about this buyer.
This has gotten long and there are other details that are interesting about this story, but I will stop here.
Thanks for listening.
Joel
broto_64
·10 months agoI've known this for years, been switched to EIS since before it was called that, thanks though.
mam98031
·10 months agoThis newer program was released in the early spring of 2023. Maybe you are confusing it with something else. It did not exist under another name. Until this program, sellers were not this well protected on international shipping. EIS is a great program IMHO.
broto_64
·10 months agoYeah it did, Global Shipping Program is what it was called before they spun it into the EIS but it's literally the same thing.
gurlcat
·10 months agoLOL, yeah @broto_64 -maybe you're confused. 🙄
Obviously (to most of us, I'm sure) you were talking about the Global Shipping Program.
broto_64
·10 months agoIt's literally the same thing, they call it something else and maybe it offers greater protection (or not) but it's all the same. Ship overseas and your responsibility ends when it hits the re-shipment center or whatever it's called nowadays.
mam98031
·10 months agoGSP is a very different program than EIS. Yes there are things that are similar, but there are enough differences, important differences that make EIS a much more superior program.
jonathanbrightlight
·10 months agoActually, the Global Shipping Program still required you to handle returns, which is a huge change in the eBay International Shipping program, since eBay truly handles any issue, even a remorse return, without your involvement now. Otherwise, yes, it was very similar and it did protect against item not received or shipping damage claims once it was received by eBay, and against negative feedback related to shipping and transit.
fern*wood
·10 months agoThe situation the OP experienced would not have happened had they used the EIS program. I will not sell/ship internationally any other way.
pickapaper
·10 months ago@hammershell wrote: "Another thing: Ebay's customer service is not trained to deal with cases like this. Every time I called, I got a different story on what I needed to do, and different promises of what they would reimburse or not reimburse regarding malicious buyers."
You are correct, CS agents do not know how to deal with individual cases. Most are working from home in some other country, and they give some scripted reply that they think you want to hear. (They are well known for telling callers what they want to hear rather than the actual facts.)
As you have found out, when you have a problem, don't call eBay. You will get better and more accurate answers from posting on this board, from sellers who have knowledge and/or experience of dealing what you are going through.
gurlcat
·10 months agoThis cannot be stressed enough @hammershell . If it weren't for the help I got here, I probably would have quit long ago. And it's not even like the platform's policies and functions are a set of facts you can learn once and apply forever; on the contrary it is constantly changing, so here is where you can keep abreast of that.
mam98031
·10 months ago@hammershell
"I am writing this as a warning. If you are a new seller or even an experienced one, and you plan on selling across borders, I would highly recommend against it. Ebay does not have anything solid in place to protect sellers from malicious buyers."
Because you aren't aware of any protection Ebay may offer does NOT = there is no protection. Ebay has a program called EIS [Ebay International Shipping] that is an excellent program and it offers fantastic protection for sellers. You may want to read the link below and decide for yourself.
EIS is a great program. I encourage you to read about it and decide for yourself if it will work for you. It takes almost all the risk for international shipping off the sellers.
Feel free to come back and ask for advice on what to do.
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/shipping-items/setting-shipping-options/ebay-international-shipping-program?id=5348
https://pages.ebay.com/internationalshippingprogram/seller/terms/
babyers88
·10 months agoodd that you got a very loose lipped CSR, normally a buyers information, i.e. complaint status, etc is not shared with a seller, they may hint at something but that's about it. Otherwise they just make the complaint and carry on with things
Aside from that you should have seen the risk 10 years ago..... 99% less chance of having to loose your money now, it can still happen but it used to be pretty easy by comparison.
sin-n-dex
·10 months agoI got a rant from a buyer about how I gave him extra time to pay and he got some UPI on his account and thought it was because of me (even though I didn't do anything). I called eBay to try and sort that out since it's unfair he got them from me when I agreed to give him an extra week to pay. The CSR said "he has lots and lots of UPIs on his account, from what I can see none of them are from you."
It does happen.
C.
bonanza125
·10 months agoI just go through EIS and had no issues with it. Ebay takes care of it. When talking to customer service based on what you have said you basically wasted your time. Customer service will tell you what you want to hear to get you off the phone. They really can't tell you anything about the buyer cause that's personal information.
inhawaii
·10 months agoThank you for the information.
I will take the appropriate action ... which is nothing.
ittybitnot
·10 months ago@hammershell
As you have been told, use EIS (eBay International Shipping). When you do that, and a buyer complains of ANYTHING to eBay they will handle it so long as the item shows delivered to the hub. You will not lose your sale (money), and eBay will take care of the buyer. This is NOT to be confused with a similar program EISD (eBay International Standard Delivery. These item also go to a hub in the US as well, but there are no protections, and if a buyer complains the SELLER must front the shipping back to the US. It is no different than shipping on your own using USPS, FedEx, or any other shipping method. A seller cannot buy a shipping label for such, and the eBay agent that said they would do it for you LIED. You have to front the shipping money to the buyer to pay for the return.
gurlcat
·10 months ago@ittybitnot I don't think I've ever seen this discussed before; maybe you know the answer: Is there any kind of perk to EISD that would ever make it a better choice than EIS? Is EISD even any better than making your own overseas shipment arrangements? Like why slow it down with a required pitstop in Chicago? What the heck is EISD GOOD FOR???
fern*wood
·10 months agoI wonder about this too. It is confusing to sellers and has far more risk for sellers. Is it still offered because enough sellers don't know the difference and it can be more profitable for ebay?
gurlcat
·10 months agoI doubt they'd strategize profiting from shipping, and even if they did, I believe they'd get more from EIS because (as foreign buyers often complain) the price tends to be higher with EIS.
It's tempting to start a whole thread about the subject, but I can't quite summon enough curiosity in this case because I have zero intention of ever using EISD, ha. It would be good to understand it for helping others here though.
ittybitnot
·10 months agoWhat the heck is EISD GOOD FOR???
@gurlcat
It is less expensive than shipping direct. You ship it to a hub. I don't know what service eBay uses, but Ascendia is one used elsewhere. Some people can use it if the "country" is not included in EIS, or they are not enrolled in EIS.
Unfortunately, due the similarity in names and both EIS and EISD shipping to a hub, they are often confused much to the detriment of the seller. Here is the eBay page:
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/shipping-items/setting-shipping-options/ebay-international-standard-delivery?id=5011&st=3&pos=3&query=eBay%20international%20standard%20delivery&intent=eBay%20International%20Standard%20Delivery&lucenceai=lucenceai&docId=HELP1570
gurlcat
·10 months ago@ittybitnot Thank you !!!!
hammershell
OP10 months agoYes, thank you for reminding me. I sent it using EISD. That is why it went to a hub that eBay works with.
chapeau-noir
·10 months agoOP stated "Because the buyer was in Canada, I was having trouble buying a return label. Ebay wouldn't allow me to create a label on their site because the buyer was in Canada, even though the item went through Ebay's clearinghouse first when I sent it to him originally. "
That sounds like EIS.
gurlcat
·10 months agoNope, EISD (see ittybitnot's explanation ^).
chapeau-noir
·10 months agoYes, so I understand now - I didn't even know that program even still existed, and have no idea why. International shipping on your own is butt-easy. At least EIS is a do-it-all solution.
gurlcat
·10 months ago🤣You'll have to enlighten me on "butt-easy." I've never heard that term. And how does it apply to EISD?
Unavailable member
·10 months agoI’m not about to read that novel you posted.
But the gist I got was you are having issues selling worldwide.
I using eBay’s international shipping program for a while and with zero issues.
The item gets delivered to the hub in Glendale, Illinois my job is finished, any returns or INRs after that it’s on eBay not me.
eBay gets to deal with “malicious buyersâ€.
Malicious buyers are also in the US.
mtgraves7984
·10 months agoI’m not about to read that novel you posted.
@ebooksdiva
I only ticked on the thread to see why 97 sets of eyeballs have been here with only 8 replies. Now I know.
tobaccocardyahoo
·10 months agoThe risks of any EIS sale are lower than the risk of the sale of a comparable item within the US,
It lowers risk and aids cash flow.
meme6253
·10 months agoThere is a risk factor to selling online no matter where, Something to keep in mind.
12345jamesstamps
·10 months agoMy whole thought process on this is why does a buyer have to go to another country to make a purchase if their country also sells items as such.
I can understand unusual items...but paint?...as if Canada doesn't make paint.
And these buyers who buy a phone from a seller in another country...as if they don't make phones in their country.
We should be able to use 'any shipping source' we want and be protected as sellers.
If eBay took care of these buyers as well as sellers we wouldn't have these problems.
As a similar situation but with a seller in Canada selling fake stamps...it took about 2 years to get the seller off the platform with so many negative feedbacks and complaints.
So even reporting the buyer or seller really in the short run does nothing.
hammershell
OP10 months agoWell, I just don't think it is worth it to sell overseas. Too much risk. The "buyer return" system is set up so they can easily rip you off. They can also do it in the USA, but it is not as much of a loss on shipping and time to deal with it. And the Ebay customer service people seem to know what they are talking about with domestic to domestic shipping.
kensgiftshop
·10 months agoUse the EIS and once it reaches the US hub, your job is done.
After that, Ebay takes care of any problems or returns and you keep your payment.
gurlcat
·10 months agoIf a wizard offered me nothing but EIS sales (no domestic) for the rest of time, I would take it. It actually protects you BETTER than domestic sales. And that goes for not only returns (which you are simply not responsible for whatsoever) but also 'Item Not Received' claims. Once the package reaches the hub, you're home free. Protected from most neutral or negative feedback too.
Unavailable member
·10 months agoYou are using eisd which completely different from eIS. EISD you hold all the responsibility just like domestic orders. With EIS a sellers responsibility ends at the eIS hub.
I received a message from eBay last nigh saying a buyer wanted to return an item.
I don’t have to do anything because they took care of it. I don’t have to issue a return label or refund, I also don’t get a return on my account. The only thing is eBay doesn’t let you see what the return reason is and the return stays open in the returns and replacements page until the return is finalized.
tobaccocardyahoo
·10 months agoThere is a solution to most risk associated with trans-border transactions for US sellers - Ebay International Shipping
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/shipping-items/setting-shipping-options/ebay-international-shipping-program?id=5348&st=3&pos=1&query=eBay%20International%20Shipping%20program&intent=ebay%20international%20shipping&lucenceai=lucenceai&docId=HELP1704
Many Canadian buyers will object to the cost, since it includes transit costs to an Ebay hub, but frugal buyers are higher risk buyers, in my experience.
You would have been protected from responsibility for an INAD claim if you used EIS.