Refund dispute - item sold Australia > USA. eBay demanding funds but buyer now wants to keep item.
😀Hi awesome people! 😃
I've used eBay for well over 20 years with mostly positive transactions, but this has been my biggest loss using eBay with no empathy from them.
Last year I sold an item on eBay from Australia to the USA with a no return on the ad.
The item I sold was $800 and had $332.10 for postage a total of $1132.10 paid by the buyer.
With the $164.45 listing selling fees so all up received ($967.65 - postage I paid) = $665.55 from the $800 sale.
The customer received the item and then delivered it to their client. Their client refused to accept the item as it was not exactly what he wanted as the handle was slightly different (although schematic drawings and photos show this on the ad including the part number from the OEM supplier).
The buyer requested a refund through eBay but I declined due to the terms of no return placed on the ad.
They then went to their financial credit institution for a refund and I received a notification from eBay.
I had to compile photos with all the information not being greater than 2MB. I did this and was very clear with ALL the information of the listing, part number, no returns policy, schematics, OEM details, pictures and listing address. I had all bases covered and there would be no reason why this would get declined (so I thought).
I appealed this at a cost of an additional $22 if I lost, sent all the details, evidence, information and reasons to eBay via their appeal system and showed the accuracy of the ad and verified I had been 100% honest and transparent.
I then sent the seller the same information as the terms of the auction and the part was correct with every possible detail, schematic, part number and references shown.
The seller assumed this refund had been rejected. eBay nor the financial institution contacted either party.
Unfortunately, eBay advised on the 87th day I had lost the appeal and I owed eBay $1154.10.
I contacted the seller and he contacted eBay as he had used the item and asked to reverse the appeal and credit the outstanding amount into my eBay account declaring he made a mistake.
The customer has not received a credit for this refund and eBay USA is telling him this dispute is for eBay Australia and myself to sort out.
...Meanwhile, eBay is telling me that it is between myself and the financial institution the buyer paid through. I called the financial institution in the USA but the financial institution refuses to discuss this with me as I did not raise the dispute.
eBay also tells me that when a dispute is made via the financial institution that their ruling is FINAL and can not be disputed/argued as per eBay policy.
Now eBay is telling me to refer back to policy and I request the seller pay me $1154.10 but they keep referring back to eBay Policy and that the customer has received a refund from their financial institution.
The buyer tells me he has been debited from their credit card the amount paid and refuses to pay me for an item twice at an inflated price when they have paid.
I have withdrawn funds from my bank account to stop eBay from accessing my funds, now they have changed their eBay Policy to state I will be charged $8 for every attempt they make that I have insufficient funds from my account.
The buyer has the items, used them, accepted my terms and has paid.
This is all in the eBay message system and the eBay agents tell me they "understand" this unfortunate situation but the hands are tied and keep referring back to the eBay policy that does not reflect this situation.
eBay has refused to show details in the transaction between the buyer > 'financial institution' > eBay.
eBay is not talking to me about this as I mentioned ACCC and refusing to help but keeps sending me demands to pay with no avenue for argument or to listen to the buyer.
It almost feels like eBay purposely made no attempt to fight this appeal as they profit from your loss and keep all the associated listing sale fees and have written eBay Policy to take advantage of this opportunity with no consultation between the buyer, seller or financial institution.
eBay has also refused to show me the evidence of the documents sent to the financial institution. They may have reduced the resolution sent to the financial institution to make the dispute claim illegible to make an easy $22 profit - who knows?!
The only thing eBay has now agreed to is "refunding" the $22 dispute fee.
This leaves me out of pocket a lot $1132.10 but eBay has made a wonderful $476.55 profit in selling fees from one transaction while the buyer has the item.
It all seems too easy for eBay to bury their head in the sand thinking this issue will go away.
It is mentally taken a financial and time-wasting burden on me dealing with this.
I am sure others have had similar situations and requested eBay change their policy to deal with a buyer changing their mind during the dispute, butter communications and evidence of what was submitted to the buyer/financial institution.
What can I do, and who can I turn to for help; be it via eBay or legal path???
I appreciate any direction and help offered.
Thank you!
EC.
anasazirose
·3 years agoDid the buyer (reseller) open a return on ebay or did they only message you through ebay?
If they opened a return through ebay, was it an INAD?
auntyrois
OP3 years agoThey purchase the item (no returns accepted), had it delivered and no longer wanted it as their customer changed their mind which they tried to tell me it was not as described.
I sent them all the supporting evidence to prove they were. The photos, schematics and part numbers were all correct as demonstrated.
I then declined their return request as it was very expensive to express air freight from Australia to USA for a large item which I explained to them and did not wish to pay for the return for their mistake, told them about the no returns I had listed and also said I was not responsible for their clients change of mind.
In the meantime they also opened a dispute with their credit card company for "no refund".
I contacted them again explained the auction and they agreed to keep the item while they never contacted their credit card company to cancel.
I supplied the details to eBay that fully supported my dispute, along with the buyers error and the no returns policy.
They ( the buyer) had in the meantime used the item (sold?).
I was billed by eBay as the credit card had agreed with the buyer and the "dispute" was closed and billed me another $22 for the dispute fee.
As it was lodged as a "no refund" the seller protection does not apply, as this is how eBay interpret their policy.
It does not matter what I do eBay can see all the communications but will not do anything about it.
All messages were through eBay so eBay could see the corresponance and see what went wrong, but they still fail to help me.
Basically eBay have a system you can defraud anyone if you use a credit card company and apply for a "not refunded" claim and eBay support this as they make money from the dispute fee.
I am trying my best to communicate with the buyer but eBay shut down my communications with them (eBay) accusing me for "outside trading".
Goes to show how much respect and empathy eBay has for sellers trying to get their money or items back - EBAY DOESN'T CARE!!!
I hope others can learn from my experience!
... And just incase you are unaware eBay has changed their policy again. If eBay tries to deduct funds from your bank account (as a seller) and you don't have sufficient funds then eBay will charge you AU$8 for each unsuccessful transaction in a method to screw the seller to up their profits by forcing you to pay up for their profits.
Sadly, eBay is no longer the eBay it once was.
farmalljr
·3 years agoIronic, how a company does stuff like this but there is still a long line of people who act like ebay does no wrong. But remember, this is still the same company who's management, harasses a woman and her husband because the company didn't like the articles they wrote. People went to prison over that one. Not enough of them though.
auntyrois
OP3 years agoWhat that eBay executive did along with others that followed suit was absolutly toxic and disgraceful, and not many know about what occured like it was swept under the carpet. I don't even recall an apology or remorse communicated from eBay on their platform.
It demonstrates what they really think of people in general - no empathy, hide behind policies they manipulate to protect their dishonesty and lack of morals when the evidence is there to support the seller.
I had hope this company would have changed their attitudes, but maybe it is true what they say about tigers and their stripes.
To them I am just another crumb in the bread bag along with many thousands of sellers have that have been wronged by eBay. They obviously ensure your dispute fails because they make so much more out of your loss.
auntyrois
OP3 years agoMy experience so far...
eBay help services are all cheap lip service, and their outcome is only to protect themselves - not you!
The policies have d-evolved over 20 years of using eBay to protect themselves to profit on a sale, loss, theft or credit card company getting a refund, no matter how honest and truthful right you are as a seller.
If a buyer goes through a credit card company for a refund (they probably promote this!) then the chances are basically 100% you will cop the following losses:
A) All costs including auction fees, postage, category levy and international auction levy.
B) Cost you paid for the buyer's international conversion fee (The seller pays and eBay hides this!)
C) Dispute fee charged that they (eBay) know you will lose!
D) Original listing fee costs
E) Your item, as it will likely NEVER be returned to you
F) Your valuable time fighting this unjust company
In the end, eBay will not back you up as a seller as they will make more profit from you if the dispute case is lost being morally wrong and unjust.
If you have chosen to fight your case you have no idea what was actually sent to the financial institution to support your dispute or any correspondence from them and they will refuse to show you the correspondence, just what you sent them.
Simply put, eBay does not care for you as a seller, no matter how long you have been a "valued-not" member. You are just another ant they can step on, as individually you have no financial clout to fight.
Jilted, I never want to sell or buy anything again using eBay after they have immorally frauded my account with no empathy or guilt while being disgusted with how eBay has conducted itself.
Sad to say but does not matter what you write here, EBAY DOSEN'T CARE! 😢
retro_entertainment_collectibles
·3 years agoFirst thing do is ask for a photo of the bank statement showing the buyer has "repaid" as I'll bet they haven't not that they couldn't doctor an image and there is no way to "Reverse" dispute once settled by the aggregate card processor. With a chargeback at least merchant accounts we had with EMS Systems/Wells Fargo and Card Service International merchant can indeed fight chargebacks albeit costly depending on the aggregate processor. But once chargeback is "Settled" it cannot be reversed, in other words a customer would have to authorize us to charge their card once again, new transaction.
Loss happens when selling, thats just a fact. Any Walmart store on the planet even with the Camera's on and on looses more than $1000 every single day to theft and chargebacks.
chris13
·3 years agoYikes. First, sorry for your losses.
What would I do...well, I'd research international banking laws a bit, but I would bet a real lawyer would just throw away good money after bad. I might look into how I can serve my own legal defense/demand via certified mail but I am not sure if that would go anywhere.
Perhaps if you are close enough, I would go in person and politely demand a face to face at the Sydney HQ
Ebay corporate offices | headquarters | Phone | Address | Reviews (corporate-office-headquarters-au.com)
It's worth noting that eBay corporate has a legal *department* on staff and they must run into this 1000x from their end for everytime we encounter it once. Exceptions made have the pesky habit of creating precedent which lawyers hate.
I have an item close to this value that someone who seems honest really wants me to ship to AUS. Not going to happen. In fact, its really against my gut to sell anything that is beyond $300 being my own personal threshold for 'what I can afford to lose due to near zero recourse against buyer-centric gaurantees'
We often convince ourselves that when we are honest, have evidence to prove our case, and do the right thing, that we are safe from risk/loss. It's unfortunately not true. There are some options for Escrow services that wrap a high value or complicated exchange of goods in legal protections outside eBay policies. Too late for that but it might help someone in the future who reads this.
I doubt this seems helpful. Best wishes for some positive outcome.
farmalljr
·3 years agoIf the buyer never actually received a refund/credit for the charge back, eBay can't LEGALLY make you refund eBay. The buyer has paid, from what I am getting from your post. If that is the case, I would tell eBay to take me to court and you prove your case. Then you file charges against eBay for fraud.
If the buyer's chargeback was turned down or they told the bank to reverse it, then there is no reason to refund eBay. This is why, IMO, eBay should be solely responsible to pay for ALL chargebacks. We can't get involved in the process other than try to put something together that is impossible to show our case. With my CC processor for my business, this is NOT an issue. I can easily show my proof, and it's not limited to one copy/clip/paste 2 MB document.
With sellers being removed from the process, we should not be liable for chargebacks. How do we know if eBay is telling us the truth if we "lost" a case? We don't and we have no way to prove it either way. After all the stuff that eBay has pulled over the years, I have no reason to trust them.
If I were in the OP's shoes, I'd tell eBay to pound sand. Sue me, and I will show my case. And when I am done, I'd be making a trip to the prosecutor's office to file charges for fraud.
auntyrois
OP3 years agoExactly farmalljr!
You do understand and seem familiar with where I'm coming from, and why eBay has placed me in a sandpit situation to shut me down from engaging on honesty, integrity and moral ground.
FYI eBay just announced they are changing policy and will now charge members AU$8 for each unsuccessful transaction attempt from the nominated account. I wonder why???
Jamie Iannone (eBayinc's smiling CEO) needs to have a look at the coalface of the "buyers and sellers" and understand how eBay performs as a conduit that connects each other to make a community and to stop pushing sellers out to other platforms.
The recent issues, as I have experienced, make me sick in the guts and only provide bad MoJo for other members. I take it I'm not the only one here suffering at the hands of eBay!
I'm possibly looking at legal action but unsure if others in Australia have had success and how they went about it fighting eBay to "right a wrong"
I feel anything >$1000 is worth fighting for and potentially exposing system failures purposely fabricated to profit eBay (where financially they benefit from your loss).
I understand eBay probably has a legal department paid to tear you down as an individual because that is what they really think of members, but I am sure there will be a way to fight! 💪😇👊
I hope there is a resolution for this before I venture down this legal path.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoThe first mistake was probably using seller does not accept returns this is only viable in the case of a remorse return. What reason did the buyer give when they requested the return? If it was NAD the seller does not accept returns means nothing. It sounds like maybe eBay ruled in your favor on the buyers eBay case for a return request and then the buyer opened a chargeback with their CC company. What reason did they give on the chargeback and how did you respond?
If the eBay case and the chargeback were both opened using the same reason and eBay ruled in your favor on the eBay case you should be protected under the eBay chargeback policy but there are not enough details in your post to be certain. Take a look at the following and see if you may be protected. By the way if the CC company ruled in the buyers favor you will probably NOT get the item back. If the buyer is ethical and you cannot resolve this through eBay they can always send you the money directly either through electronic transfer or via snail mail using a money order or check.
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/payment-dispute-seller-protections?id=5293
Curious how you got the CC Company information generally this is something eBay does not disclose. Did your buyer provide that?
auntyrois
OP3 years agoThanks for the link.
eBay seems not to be interested in providing seller protection even though this covers me.
This is where I am getting very annoyed when they can see all the correspondence and they refuse to help!
The buyer, unfortunately, made an error due to their client's request and their client no longer wanted the part. This is a very large and heavy item. I paid a premium to have this delivered by air and required clearance to send which is the main reason why I didn't accept returns on this.
I supplied all details and explained I cannot be held responsible for their client's mistake - why should I?
The buyer then request a return, but I specified the listing as no returns (being so difficult to transport) so I declined on these grounds which eBay agreed and declined his refund request.
The buyer then went to their CC and requested the grounds for not being refunded.
eBay communicated this and gave me an opportunity (was it?) to supply all the details and evidence to dispute the refund request.
This is where things happened that eBay will not help me when the buyer then decided he wanted the part that the policies seem to not cover so it becomes too hard for eBay to deal with and eBay failed to contact the CC to discuss and help resolve this.
eBay has told the seller (me) one load of crap and at the same time told the buyer another load of crap.
They (eBay) refuse to show any transactions and communications between them, the CC and the buyer.
It's sad but it almost seems too easy to rort the system on big $$$ foreign purchases via CC refunds and eBay policy dead-spots.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoeBay seems not to be interested in providing seller protection even though this covers me.
This is where I am getting very annoyed when they can see all the correspondence and they refuse to help!
The buyer, unfortunately, made an error due to their client's request and their client no longer wanted the part. This is a very large and heavy item. I paid a premium to have this delivered by air and required clearance to send which is the main reason why I didn't accept returns on this.
I supplied all details and explained I cannot be held responsible for their client's mistake - why should I?
The buyer then request a return, but I specified the listing as no returns (being so difficult to transport) so I declined on these grounds which eBay agreed and declined his refund request.
The buyer then went to their CC and requested the grounds for not being refunded.
eBay communicated this and gave me an opportunity (was it?) to supply all the details and evidence to dispute the refund request.
This is where things happened that eBay will not help me when the buyer then decided he wanted the part that the policies seem to not cover so it becomes too hard for eBay to deal with and eBay failed to contact the CC to discuss and help resolve this.
eBay has told the seller (me) one load of crap and at the same time told the buyer another load of crap.
They (eBay) refuse to show any transactions and communications between them, the CC and the buyer.
It's sad but it almost seems too easy to rort the system on big $$$ foreign purchases via CC refunds and eBay policy dead-spots.
Really sorry you are in this situation. It is not uncommon for eBay NOT to stand behind their own policies. They have told you truth about one thing and that is once the CC company makes a decision the CC company will not reverse it. Since they have ruled in the buyers favor there is no doubt that they have refunded the buyer, although they may not have seen it show up on their statement yet, and are after eBay to get the CC companies money back which I am willing to bet eBay has already given them. Since you have locked out your bank account and I am assuming it is NOT backed up by a CC at least eBay cannot unilaterally take the funds from you.
While eBay may terminate your account over this issue since you are in Australia it is hard to say whether eBay will try and pursue this from a legal perspective and I am not familiar with how Australia works with regards to collection agencies.
This whole situation really sucks.
evelyb30
·3 years agoThis sounds like a painful reminder of the hard truths of eBay: 1. eBay lies through its teeth to sellers, 2. if there is a way to royally screw up a situation, eBay will find that way, and 3. don't sell anything on eBay you can't afford to toss in the trash.
It might be worth one more throw of the dice - send a politely worded message (difficult some days) to eBay for Business on Facebook and yell for help. The customer service people there aren't subcontrators and seem to know their stuff. Even they don't know everything, but at least they don't lie.
kh-vince
·3 years agoPost removed, user already warned.
auntyrois
OP3 years agoI spoke to an eBay agent and he seemed yo understand the situation after viewing the correspondence but he said his hands were tied due to policy but understood my situation but kind enough to supply these details.
I called the credit card company in the USA but they refused to deal with me as I was not the holder of the card.
eBay blocked my selling privileges for discussing this issue and accusing me of going outside eBay policy.
So, if they treat me as guilty, block me and won't help sort this issue I then decided I might as well look up the address, find the buyers contact details and contact him direct! (How ironic!)
The buyer tells me they have paid and can supply the information to prove they have paid.
So I wonder who's the one who has my money? The buyer, the credit card company or eBay???
I have spent over 20hrs on the phone and on the internet over this issue. I refuse to cave into the eBay and feel there is a total lack of transparency around these issues where they keep hiding behind "policy" they interpret to suit themselves to prevent them from repaying the funds taken from you while being unethical by making you look like the bad person.