RE: Suggestions that may be helpful to handle disputes and chargebacks
Responding to this post by eBay.
Hey @kyle@ebay. The post has great info which some of us have done our best to share with other sellers. Thanks for posting it.
Can you clarify further on the below part. Where would a seller provide a return address aside from having their return address filled out on their account settings page? If a seller does not challenge a dispute they cannot upload any documents and there is no comments box in the dispute to send a message.
"If you believe you do not have sufficient evidence to challenge the payment dispute, you can accept the dispute and still provide a return address and eBay will share the address with the payment institution. In some cases, the buyer’s payment institution may demand the buyer to return the item failing which they can rule in your favor."
I'd also like to take this opportunity to suggest eBay allow sellers upload more than one document. At minimum we should be able to upload three docs to challenge a dispute.
partfinds
·3 years ago@wastingtime101 great point. Allowed one document with limited nr of characters, no pdf allowed either one bad quality picture allowed.
i had dispute time ago and despite providing that item was as described lost dispute like many of us- i didn’t find info useful in original other Ebay post
coolections
·3 years ago@wastingtime101 When you click the link saying you are challenging the dispute they give you a place to add you return address.
kyle@ebay
Hey @wastingtime101 I'm happy to clear that up. If you were to accept a payment dispute, you don't need to take another action to provide your return address (so long as your return address is current). You also don't need to upload any further info or documents or include any comments in that situation.
wastingtime101
OP3 years agoThanks @kyle@ebay. So no action is needed to provide a return address as long as the one on our account settings is current.
The request to upload more than one doc (minimum 3) is for instances when a seller is challenging the dispute. Can you pass on that FB?
kyle@ebay
Hey @wastingtime101 that is correct! And I'm more than happy to pass along that feedback as well. It would definitely save the hassle of creating a single pdf with all of your documentation and sending that in as your single document.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoI am suspicious of the entire posting with regards to NAD chargebacks. The poster described processes and information to provide for a NAD chargeback that may help win the chargeback while that same information and details almost NEVER works in the case of a buyer filed eBay NAD claim. The seller always appears to loose the case and the buyer is fully refunded. Like eBay the CC company is probably going to take the word of the buyer over the seller in a he said, she said situation.
While the recommendation to dispute the chargeback is viable is eBay offering to pickup the tab from the CC company if the seller looses the case?
EBay and the selling community would be better served if eBay worked with the CC company's and eBay was the one that disputed the NAD chargeback even before the seller had to get involved. According to the current Federal Laws which in some cases are more like guidelines the following are NOT considered to be valid reasons to initiate a chargeback.
You should only contact the bank if you believe you have a genuine chargeback claim. All of the reasons below are considered invalid reasons for chargebacks:
Why is eBay not pushing back on the CC companies where the buyer has elected to circumvent the eBay processes for NAD claims/cases? Buyers are well aware that it is easier to open a chargeback with their CC company that it is to go through the eBay NAD process, especially when the seller may demand the return of the item for a case opened through eBay.
But again this would require resources to handle and I am not sure eBay is willing to cut into their bottom line without a way to recover the funds associated with the processing.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoThe biggest issue is the bypass of eBay’s return policies. If you offer returns and free returns on here there should be NO VALID REASON for a chargeback to be initiated EVER.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoThe CC chargeback should only be allowed for merchants who refuse to help the buyer when a mistake is made when they do this dumb no returns policy on here which is setting you up for a very very bad situation with chargebacks to begin with. The problem is made much worse with sellers who do not do proper descriptions, photo’s, ample time to return merchandise.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoThe CC chargeback should only be allowed for merchants who refuse to help the buyer when a mistake is made when they do this dumb no returns policy on here which is setting you up for a very very bad situation with chargebacks to begin with. The problem is made much worse with sellers who do not do proper descriptions, photo’s, ample time to return merchandise.
Agree 100% but eBay has no control over who can initiate a chargeback and under MP the CC companies see eBay as the merchant of record. Agree that the no returns accepted is poorly understood by a lot of sellers that think it equates to no refunds.
What eBay should and could do is work with the CC companies to refute chargebacks based on the simple reason that the CC holder has NOT gone through the merchants (eBay's) processes prior to filling the chargeback. However, this would require eBay to dedicate resources towards working this which I am not sure they are willing to do.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoIn the sane world the credit card company SHOULD require a return of merchandise. In the insane world of CC company they customarily do not do this. This should be a change in the whole system even mandated by law that they must require this from the buyer.
rfmtm
·3 years agoIn a sane world the seller should be allowed to deal directly with the CCC to dispute/appeal the claim, especially if ebay isn't willing to fight for its sellers.
When I had my own merchant account the CCC called you and you had a reasonable chance of fighting the dispute or at the very least getting you item back. Since ebay took this option away, they should be at least will to do more to protect us sellers.
CCC refunding without requiring a return is just plain theft, and with ebay in the middle you can't do anything about it.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoWell, that is why they have the seller protections. I have had a few of these and they gave me my money even if the CCC DID NOT do the right thing. But, this is an iffy situation for some folks on here and that is not good overall to feel safe.
coolections
·3 years ago@vintagecraze50 Please explain the process on how Ebay gave you your money back on a CC dispute?
coolections
·3 years agoSo the one person who knows the answer out of all the replies has not returned. @vintagecraze50 I was really hoping you can tell us all how to get your money back when a buyer files a dispute with their CC company. I believe you are the only one on Ebay who has managed to do it.
nh7235
·3 years agoActually, eBay has no access to any of the buyers' credit card companies. That's because
-- eBay is not the merchant of record,
-- as eBay is just a PayPal accountholder and an Adyen accountholder,
-- just like eBay sellers were PayPal accountholders when we took payments directly at PayPal.
Buyer's credit card > PayPal the merchant of record > eBay's PayPal account > eBay seller
Buyer's credit card > Adyen the merchant of record > eBay's Adyen account > eBay seller
So eBay does even not get the name of the buyer's credit card company --
just like we could not talk to the buyer's bank when we took PayPal payments.
Then when the seller submits the one photo --
eBay sends it to PayPal or Adyen, who may or may not forward to the buyer's credit card company.
rfmtm
·3 years agoWell at least PayPal usually required the buyer to return the item. Certainly ebay is big enough to put pressure on Ayden to do the same.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoIn the sane world the credit card company SHOULD require a return of merchandise. In the insane world of CC company they customarily do not do this. This should be a change in the whole system even mandated by law that they must require this from the buyer.
The laws regarding CC companies handling of chargebacks are already on the books. The problem is they are 50+ years old and badly in need of revision. Write your Congress person for all the good that will do. Businesses are the ones that need to put the pressure on Congress to revise the laws.
stainlessenginecovers
·3 years agoMost disputes are
1.) "I didn't order this"; in which the CC company should verify the 'ship to' address on ebay vs. the CC Holders Address on file; but we sellers are never privy to that info
or
2.) "Not Received" in which there wouldn't be anything to 'ship back' and the seller is SOL?
Am I to assume we are only talking about #1 above?
wastingtime101
OP3 years agoNeither. Read the post linked in the OP - it's about SNAD payment disputes. It's the post by Kyle that's pinned to the top of the selling forum.
dhbookds
·3 years ago@kyle@ebay
In some cases, the buyer’s payment institution may demand the buyer to return the item failing which they can rule in your favor."
Is this based on a NEW stance by payment institutions? I've never heard of of an item return with a payment dispute (chargeback)...... @wastingtime101 have you?
wastingtime101
OP3 years agoYes, I have. If the dispute is filed with PayPal it's the norm. If the dispute is filed with a credit card it's not common but not unheard of for the card to insist the item is returned.
Then there's the other side where the seller attempts to initiate the return. I've won disputes where I sent the buyer a prepaid shipping label to return the item before responding to the dispute, buyer didn't return, credit card ruled against them.
If more cards insist on a return we'll see various results from: fewer claims filed by buyers to fewer claims lost by sellers to more scams with sending back junk.
dhbookds
·3 years agoAh.......paypal.......certainly..how soon I forget....... and yes, have heard of trying to get the return before replying to the dispute......does ebay provide the return label (which isn't chargeable until used)? Or are you just paying for one thru some other label provider and have to eat the cost, if it isn't used?
Certainly agree that insisting on a return would cut down on these claims. Would be great if Ebay could set up a return process BEFORE a seller has to respond to these claims........
@wastingtime101
wastingtime101
OP3 years agoeBay is the only venue I know of that gives you 5 days to void a USPS label. Other venues offer the USPS limit which I think is 28 days to void a label. I use either stamps.com or pirateship.com, depending.
Also - if you're generating a return label through one of those platforms as opposed to a fresh new label, then it's not charged until the label is used. Depends where the original shipping label was purchased. If through pirate I can create a return label through pirate. Same with stamps. But if original label was purchased through eBay then you have to generate a prepaid label through another venue like pirate, stamps, etc which can be voided if not used within 28 days.
rfmtm
·3 years agoPirateShip offers a Pay-On-Use return label.
toomuchstuffagain35
·3 years agoThat's something I don't understand. Why ebay only lets us void a label within 5 days.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoThere should be an interface between ebay and all the card companies where a label is ready to be sent and the CC companies COOPERATE with this.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoCurrently the process CC companies use is totally unfair to the merchant regarding their flippant way of allowing a customer to keep the merch and get a refund. It needs to be overhauled.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoThe send back junk thing might be a problem I agree. If the chargeback buyer is a thief.
blingfling123
·3 years ago@dhbookds
Both of my banks required a return on a dispute for a purchased item in the last year for an INAD. They do require the merchant to provide a label/funds to facilitate it though.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years ago@dhbookds
Both of my banks required a return on a dispute for a purchased item in the last year for an INAD. They do require the merchant to provide a label/funds to facilitate it though.
If only it were this simple. I filed two chargebacks in the last year related to counterfeit US coins. I am prohibited, by law, from returning or sending counterfeit coins through the US Postal system or any other logistic provider for that matter.
I won both of these cases and turned the coins over to the US Treasury.
blingfling123
·3 years ago@dbfolks166mt
Yeah, I can absolutely understand a situation like that. Mine were mundane bought x and was sent y stuff but I was still required to return or at least show proof I tried to return with the merchant. Lots of back-and-forth emails and it actually kind of surprised me, especially after seeing how chargebacks are handled here and other places.
We had a long discussion and I have mentioned this before. Banks are starting to crack down on chargebacks and I had to sign affidavits and give a lot of information. They were saying that they are tired of dealing with bogus chargebacks and these steps were some of the ways to try to nip the abuse in the bud. People think that CB's do not cost the banks anything, but they do. Each one has to be reviewed manually and acted on. It is not free for the bank to process them. It is just the customer that gets all their money back. The bank is still out their costs.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years ago@dbfolks166mt
Yeah, I can absolutely understand a situation like that. Mine were mundane bought x and was sent y stuff but I was still required to return or at least show proof I tried to return with the merchant. Lots of back-and-forth emails and it actually kind of surprised me, especially after seeing how chargebacks are handled here and other places.
We had a long discussion and I have mentioned this before. Banks are starting to crack down on chargebacks and I had to sign affidavits and give a lot of information. They were saying that they are tired of dealing with bogus chargebacks and these steps were some of the ways to try to nip the abuse in the bud. People think that CB's do not cost the banks anything, but they do. Each one has to be reviewed manually and acted on. It is not free for the bank to process them. It is just the customer that gets all their money back. The bank is still out their costs.
Agree with you 100% and there is probably a 80/20 solution to a big part of this problem with 80% of the friendly fraud chargebacks that could be resolved with some minor changes to the current federal laws or in eBay's case better handling of the chargeback up front and interaction with the CC company. The other 20% would the oddball cases.
There are good and bad sections of the current federal laws. The bad part is the laws are focused only on the financial transaction and not the merchandise or the logistics aspects. The good part is the laws are somewhat ambiguous and allow the CC companies and banks the ability to define their own policies and procedures.
I realize the CC companies and some merchant's are cracking down on the chargeback abuse. CC companies have been known to terminate a cardholders account if they see a pattern of chargeback abuse. They have also been known to revoke a merchants ability to accept their CC's as a payment method for merchandise if the merchant has a pattern of repeated chargebacks. You are correct with regards to the cost and this is costing merchants millions in friendly fraud along with millions for the CC companies to handle and process.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoThat is what PayPal always did. You do not get a free item if you claim SNAD, etc, you must return the item.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years ago@kyle@ebay
In some cases, the buyer’s payment institution may demand the buyer to return the item failing which they can rule in your favor."
Is this based on a NEW stance by payment institutions? I've never heard of of an item return with a payment dispute (chargeback)...... @wastingtime101 have you?
I have NEVER heard of this or seen a case posted on this forum where that has happened. I seriously doubt that CC companies are going to be willing to get into the logistics business side of things and under the current federal laws they are NOT required to. The only thing the CC companies are focused on is the financial transaction and the buyer received exactly what they ordered or paid for.
CC companies already hate the impact chargebacks have on their bottom line I am not sure they are going to get into the logistical aspect and add to that impact.
toomuchstuffagain35
·3 years agoI would think getting rid of their "customers' that are thieves would be to their benefit. If a buyer is prepared to cheat to get to keep both the merchandise and the money, it follows they won't be worried about cheating the cc company as well.
harafkac0
·3 years agoTechnically it would, however from a dispute handler's point of view it is impossible to determine whether it lies with the buyer or the seller... Because there are dishonest sellers out there too, and plenty of them, no shortage. And in a dispute who is to say whodunit, as well the financial institution isn't playing judge and jury, their customer's satisfaction is what is most important to them and in that sense will almost always side with the buyer.
***
On a side note, you know we wanted to reply to that pinned thread so bad too.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoI would think getting rid of their "customers' that are thieves would be to their benefit. If a buyer is prepared to cheat to get to keep both the merchandise and the money, it follows they won't be worried about cheating the cc company as well.
You would think that would be the case but think about what happens with a NAD where the seller looses and is not covered by some type of eBay policy. The buyer is fully refunded and may or may not have to return the item. If they return it the seller pays the return postage.
Since the buyer is fully refunded the seller eats the cost of the shipping, both ways if it is returned, and the eBay fees since eBay does not refund the seller for those. What incentive does eBay have to boot the buyer?
toomuchstuffagain35
·3 years agoI was talking about to the cc company's benefit, not ebay.
tsme35
·3 years agoI also had a fishing rod returned that the charge back went thru pay pal, guy went straight to charge back instead of filing on ebay, he had to pay to return it.
I too wish ebay would do something, like letting the CC know if it was denied by ebay or the ability to include it.
wastingtime101
OP3 years agoIf an MBG claim was already decided against the buyer by eBay or refunded in full through eBay then the seller is protected against a payment dispute of the same type no matter how the CC rules. I'm sure eBay does provide info if a case was ruled against the buyer because eBay doesn't want to be out of pocket on the refund.
Read more here:
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/payment-dispute-seller-protections?id=5293
tsme35
·3 years agoI get that if the buyer was already refunded, makes sense. Just have seen a few of sellers on the board say a buyer lost a ebay case but won on a chargeback. I've been lucky and only had 3, 2 for not recognizing transaction(won both) and the one for the fishing rod, which I told the buyer I'd send a return label. Ebay tried to charge me the $20 but refunded it back.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoI get that if the buyer was already refunded, makes sense. Just have seen a few of sellers on the board say a buyer lost a ebay case but won on a chargeback. I've been lucky and only had 3, 2 for not recognizing transaction(won both) and the one for the fishing rod, which I told the buyer I'd send a return label. Ebay tried to charge me the $20 but refunded it back.
A lot of times if you read those cases that are posted on the board where the seller won the eBay case but lost the chargeback you will notice that a lot of times the buyer will change the reason when they open the chargeback, usually to NAD. Since the case is different than the eBay case the eBay seller coverage does not apply.
kyle@ebay
Hey @dhbookds thanks for the question. @wastingtime101 hit it right on the head here; this is primarily a PayPal thing.
harafkac0
·3 years agoYes I have, a payment institution does allow the option to request (key word, request) a return, however (and I want to make this part clear) the buyer doesn't have to honor that request in order for the chargeback to process and be found in the buyer's favor.