Problem Buyer & Return
Buyer started a return with reason "changed my mind". No worries accepted the return. Two days later receive email from buyer that the return should been a NAD and they want shipping refunded too. Okay, not one to argue I said I will refund in full once I receive item in same condition. However, now I get email about sending the shipping refund to a paypal account. Does he know more than I do? Or is it something more sinister? Can I refund the shipping costs via ebay if it is a remorse return? Return arrives next week. Now on my blocked list.
49 comments
rugerskick
·8 months agoThe return/refund process happens entirely through ebay. Dont ever send a refund another way. Always do it through the return/refund process. And if the item works and they lied about the INAD to get free shipping, do not refund the initial shpping or the return shipping.
trip98
OP8 months ago@guricat
Here's a question: In sellers' responses to his negatives, do you see any stating he returned damaged or bogus items?
Without going back and checking. This is what I read paraphrasing.
One seller said he was the biggest nutball he had to deal with
Another said I will not refund a shirt because you say it wrinkled when you wore it (appeared he wanted keep the item)
Another I will not refund 65 days after purchase of... (can't remember)
Another I will not send you another item (not familiar with the item some kind pipe) repainted
There were more.... but pretty sure no one said a bogus or damaged item came back
Also, around 6-8 or on the first page of positives for seller "easy to work with" these might be partial refunds or returns.
The buyer has a few things for sale ...ironically, miss-titled two identical shirt listings. The shirt photos did not match the color stated in the title. He switched the color between the two listings. When I have time I will go and look again. Packing up a few orders right now.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@trip98 Sorry I keep thinking of things to say. Selling to wonderful buyers on eBay is my favorite job but thwarting scammers is my favorite sport, so a unique situation like yours is utterly captivating. 😆
So you know how I said it's important to do everything in the right order? -That includes writing a response to a negative feedback. IF* you hope to get the neg removed, don't write any response until you are certain that it won't be removed. We've seen cases here where the seller having already written a response appeared to negate removal efforts.
*I put an asterisk on 'IF' because .... well, this is something lots of sellers would disagree with, just my personal philosophy .... I think there's a case to be made for letting ONE negative (especially from a scammer) -STICK,** with a well-crafted response, even if you think you could get it removed.
Not only is having 100% positive not imperative for sales, I have actually seen lots of statements from buyers (in their forum) that they don't trust 100% sellers, because they recall a time when they witnessed their negative get removed, so they have this idea that some sellers get favorable treatment from eBay, therefore they could be a terrible seller but still have 100% pos. So having 1 neg can show that you're a normal mortal eBay seller, LOL. But you know who else it speaks to? SCAMMERS. Some of them purposely target 100% sellers, sensing they may be proud enough of that score to do whatever it takes to keep it (namely, caving to feedback extortion). I'll never forget the time my 1 neg slid off my 12-month percentage calculation and I resumed a 100% score .... and less than 48 hours later I had a buyer writing a petty gripe to me about their item. Of course I always answer those the same way "I'm so sorry the item is disappointing, I offer free returns if you'd like a refund". It's the way to call their bluff, but it puts me in a bad mood and I'd rather not have to deal with those at all.
OH, and now with automated feedback, 1 negative is less threatening than ever. If you got one today, you'd have a 99.5% positive, and that would get closer (faster) to 99.9 with every positive feedback, whether hand-written or automated.
Honestly I'd love to be in your shoes right now, so I could get that 1 neg and write a response that shows the next year's worth of scam-seekers that I'm no easy mark.
**BUT I do think it's even more important to get eBay's eye on a scammer than to show off my battle scar from them. So what I would do in your position is: Observe this d-bag negging me ... report him (focusing more on the return abuse than the feedback abuse) .... let eBay decide whether to remove the neg or not .... and if not, rather than request removal by a social media rep, just write a response that shows good buyers it wasn't a genuine failure on my part, and shows scammers I don't faint at the sight of red.
stainlessenginecovers
·8 months agoI would respond:
It appears you give a lot of neg feedback, and I've spoken to a couple of those sellers. Appears you like to 'hold feedback' against a seller to get some or all of your $$ back. I am reporting this to ebay, along with your 'threat' of feedback to me, which is against ebay rules. ps. I don't care about your feedback to me, I can absorb is as well as ebay does not count feedback in seller metrics.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@stainlessenginecovers I don't think there's anything wrong with using the response to point out that the negative was given by a scammer, especially how their pattern is observable in all their feedback left for sellers. But it's always important to remember this response will be 100% public, and future buyers (if they check feedback) will be especially curious about the negatives, so every word counts. Calling out a scammer may be priceless, but reassuring good buyers that you're a good seller has actual $ value, so I think it's wise to talk about the scammer rather than to them. As in, not "you" statements but "This person" or "This individual" (calling them a buyer is really too nice, but calling them a scammer sounds unhinged and kind of cliche on eBay, LOL).
Also it's impossible to pre-formulate a response when you haven't seen what the scammer wrote yet. Is he going to lie about the item being not as described? -If so, then I'd say that's even more important to address than his obvious scamming history, because (again) what you want is to reassure future buyers that you deliver what you advertise.
stainlessenginecovers
·8 months ago@gurlcat I was talking 'message back'; not leaving it on feedback.
gurlcat
·8 months agoSo sorry, I did make a groundless assumption on what you meant there. If I had an excuse, it would be the huge number of seller responses to feedbacks I have seen where they wrote "you" statements to the buyer. Cringy stuff, LOL! 😆
stainlessenginecovers
·8 months agoThe only time I 'respond' is on a neg or nasty neutral and then I simply say 'buyer must be confusing me with another seller as they never (either contacted me) or (opened a return) as I would happily fix the problem'
This way, buyers see I take care of customers (which I do if they would simply contact).
trip98
OP8 months agoThank all for the info and support. Next wait and see what I get in the mail.
I took off him my block list and I will add back-on after finish the steps of the return, but no communication from me and no extra payment.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@wastingtime101 Here's one more to add to the file of sellers in a hairy scenario that isn't over yet, so they have to choose between keeping communication open or keeping the buyer from further purchases.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@trip98 I was thinking about that after you said he reported that he got the early refund from eBay. I actually think that's a smart new feature, because 99+% of buyers are decent human beings and deserve compensation as quickly as possible, and because it doesn't impinge on seller protections (you still get to inspect the item and withhold up to 50% of the refund if it was returned in lesser condition -then it's eBay who eats the difference, which is only right).
The only problem I could foresee is this: any buyer with the slightest scammy inclination getting an idea. See, the way it works, they know ahead of time they'll get the early refund; it's not a surprise. -Now I'm kicking myself for not taking a quick screenshot of this a couple days ago, when I filed a return and eBay offered me the early thing. What happens is you start the return, then there's a popup offering 2 choices in how you'll receive the refund: 1. eBay gift card credited the instant the return label gets an Accepted scan from the carrier, or 2. The normal route: cash refund to your original payment method, after the return is delivered and the seller inspected the item and approves the refund.
So it's not hard to picture a scammy-inclined person thinking, "Huh, I could get the refund no matter what's in the package" and then returning an empty package, some piece of junk, the sale item thoroughly destroyed, or heck-a dog turd, if they're insanely angry at the seller for some reason. Considering this scammer of yours appears to repeatedly scam on eBay, the idea of him having gift card credit already .... well not only does that mean he'll use it to buy from (and scam) at least one more seller, but there's a much higher likelihood of him packing something other than your item in that return package. The one thing that might stop him from doing that is thinking the $14 shipping money is still in play.
Here's a question: In sellers' responses to his negatives, do you see any stating he returned damaged or bogus items?
trip98
OP8 months agoThe buyer sent many very long messages... it will take a minute to find the sentences about the negative. Here is one To me maintaining excellent feedback is worth more then 20 dollars...
Several messages in he was not happy with the condition of the original box and red ribbon on the ornament. He said I did not describe the condition fully. Ornament itself no complaints. Correction buyer found problems with the ornament too in later email. Far as I remember the box, ribbon and ornament are in excellent condition.
chapeau-noir
·8 months agoHe's trying to lead you by the nose with feedback threats- don't let him. He sounds like a real chronic, and one negative (with a calm, business like reply reassuring future buyers) isn't gonna kill you. (I've been there).
broto_64
·8 months agoUnfortunately I am the kind of person, I don't react well to threats.
Once a buyer threatens me, my customer service just left the chat.
I would stay professional and not reply what I really want to reply, but that buyer absolutely has to hope they crossed all their t's and dotted all their i's because at this stage we're rien ne va plus.
So I don't think that buyer would get their shipping refund through Paypal, the chances of that happening the way this started out weren't great to begin with but they're definitely zero to nil now.
I'll take my negative, and block the buyer.
asset_liquidators
·8 months agoWhen the item arrives back, refund his payment. He is just trying to get a free return on an item he decided he doesn't want. That is NOT a NAD return. You already blocked him so just refund the original payment once returned.
trip98
OP8 months agoInteresting note: He said he was refunded in full and not charged for the return label only the original shipping. So, my question now is, In a remorse return who pay for the shipping? In this case Buyer paid for the original shipping (and wants me to refund via paypal), and ebay paid for the return shipping on the sly? As far as I understood sellers do not pay shipping on a remorse returns. I always thought buyer paid for it both to and from.
mamacassidy
·8 months agoI don't know exactly what item this person bought. But I just randomly clicked on 3 of your sold listings, and your return policy on those 3 listings says:
wes3936
·8 months agoHere’s what I think:
Buyer bought item and paid for shipping. Buyer received item and changes mind. Buyer contacts seller with above. Seller starts return based on change mind. Per sellers shipping policy buyer pays return shipping for change of mind. Buyer prints shipping label and ships item to seller. eBay then refunds buyer upon proof of shipping (scanned by carrier), not receipt of item by buyer. Item is on its way, buyer gets refund and goes, “Ooops I bought a $30 item with $12 shipping plus another $12 for return shipping, so their return was for only $18, not the $54 they’ve spent. So buyer goes online and searches How to get free return shipping on eBay and up pops NAD. So now they ask seller to change, which they can’t do, and ask for him to operate outside eBay system. Which is a big no no for eBay. Assume when you get delivered return everything is fine. Regardless, right now, file a claim with eBay that buyer is asking you to do things outside of eBay policy (sent refund via PayPal). Even if eBay decides no policy has been broken, buyer will not be able to leave negative feedback and if they already have, it will be removed, so no defect.
gurlcat
·8 months agoI'm pretty sure he either misunderstood the figures he saw or was lying to to confuse you.
albertabrightalberta
·8 months agoSome of your listings have "free returns" and others have "Buyer pays for return shipping."
For the listing your buyer is returning, which type of return does that listing offer?
If it's a free return listing, you pay for the return shipping but since you charged separately for shipping, that doesn't need to be refunded since it's a remorse return.
Had the buyer opened a NAD claim, the original shipping would have been refunded.
trip98
OP8 months agoThis item was not listed with free returns.
Side note just looked at feedback he left for others. oh boy.... what a mess. He leaves Negs and Neutrals with Sellers counter responding with some of his unreasonable, crazy demands. Only positives he left were "good to work with" type feedback. Which usually means the seller caved to his demands.
gurlcat
·8 months agoYep that's exactly what that means. At least you know precisely what kind of low down pond scum you're facing now. Even a so-called "positive" from him is a signal to other scammers.
Totally up to you, but I wouldn't give him one penny more, even after you get the item back. Then after he inevitably negs you, report his abusive buyer behaviors, and if the neg doesn't disappear in a day or two as a result of that, contact eBay via social media to see if they'll remove it. These things must all be done in the right order.
jonathanbrightlight
·8 months ago@gurlcat @trip98 Agreed, and hopefully eBay will take note of the pattern and go beyond just removing any negative on this order if/when they leave one, and actually sanction the buyer. It does happen sometimes.
broto_64
·8 months agoI can assure you buyers can be NARU'd for abusive buyer behavior.
jonathanbrightlight
·8 months agoI know. I succeeded in getting a buyer NARU’d recently.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@jonathanbrightlight I would be the 'cool' employee who (if the buyer was NARU'd) would go ahead and remove all their recent negs for sellers, whether they requested it or not. I mean when it's obvious they used feedback purely as a weapon, leaving them stick is like letting an innocent person stay in jail after someone else was proven the real perpetrator.
12345jamesstamps
·8 months ago'blocked list'...that might block emails from buyer also and make buyer mad...I suggest not blocking the buyer immediately...since there's always a feedback coming to a 'theater' near you.
Buyer probably realizes they have to pay for return shipping...'changed my mind'...'remorse return'.
Do you like sending items on approval?...if so, refund shipping to his Pay Pal account AFTER item is in your hands. Just needs the buyer email address which can be hard to obtain in eBay emails back and forth.
Good luck.
trip98
OP8 months agoI didn't block emails. Just from buying. Another email just come in... haven't read it yet. Probably reply to my email saying didn't think I would have a problem refunding him in full via ebay.
12345jamesstamps
·8 months agoI get buyers who pay and I can do a 'shipping discount' in the item sold in eBay...I have some that get combined shipping and that's easy to do.
But...you haven't got the item yet...and will it be the item sent or a piece of coal?
trip98
OP8 months agoMy head hurts. Buyer just emailed and said he already received his refund, but not the original $14 for shipping which he wants sent to a paypal account. I have not refunded ... waiting for the item to arrive. So weird. Not sure this problem is even worthy of posting thread.
trip98
OP8 months agoOkay, I think I figured it out. Ebay has already refunded him. That is when the buyer saw the shipping costs were not refunded. So, he asking for it in a paypal payment because it he should of used NAD not changed mind. Here is the sometimes ebay policy.
When eBay refunds a buyer in a return request
eBay may sometimes issue a refund to your buyer on confirmation the return is on its way. When this happens, we’ll wait until the item is back with you before deducting the amount from you. This doesn’t impact your protections as a seller.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@trip98 I am someone who always advocates having free returns -for many reasons, including avoiding ticking off customers like this, who are probably used to other platforms where all returns are always free.
Obviously it's a moot point on this transaction, but I have to ask: why not have free returns, if you're willing to go through whatever bending over backwards it takes to refund this person's shipping, even though you know it's actually a remorse return?
If I were in your exact shoes right now, I would just quit responding to this person. They're being ridiculous. I would expect a negative feedback but depending on what they write, it might be removable because of the absurd nature of their request, which a social media rep could read in the messages. Even if the negative were to stick, I could afford it because like you I have 100% positive presently. And I would just write a carefully-considered response to it (again depending on what they accused me of).
trip98
OP8 months agoYes, I most likely will get a negative. He already indirectly said he was going to, but I think I have case because he added his email and asked to be paid to his paypal account.
I do offer free returns on all my dollhouse miniatures. I will consider adding it to all item under 1 pd.
The back and forth with buyer because he came out guns blazing about not getting full refund when I hadn't even refunded yet or received the item back. I learned a lot from the exchange, though, about ebay policy and "sometimes issueing refund to buyer... when tracking it is on its way .
I rarely get returns some year none this Christmas season I have had 3. The other two went fine.
broto_64
·8 months agoLol some people need a medication change, or maybe they shouldn't be on medication.
I mean I don't know, what I would say, probably I would ask for clarification...
Like, is this about item "suchandsuch," and have you mailed it back yet?
Because I can't issue a refund until the item arrives here, only thing I can do is cancel the order which I didn't do.
jonathanbrightlight
·8 months agoIf you blocked the buyer from purchasing from you, then eBay also blocks them from messaging you anymore, even if you have an ongoing conversation to to the moment you add them to the block list. That used to be separate things, but now no matter what other settings you enable or disable, if they are blocked from purchasing, they are blocked from messaging. That may be an important point here.
lacemaker3
·8 months agoWhen you put someone on your blocked buyer list, then eBay automatically blocks all messages and emails between you as well. There's no warning about this, and no way to get around it (except take him off the BBL). So this buyer can't contact you and you can't contact him, as long as he is on your BBL. The messages just disappear into the ether.
Edit: oops, I see that @jonathanbrightlight already posted this.
mamacassidy
·8 months agoAnd also, he probably meant the paypal for the refund of the shipping label to send the item back to you.
My guess is, he just changed his mind as he originally said, but when he realized he had to pay to ship it back to you, he wanted to say NAD.
beautyforless4u
·8 months agoHello mamacassidy,
I just have a quick question. What does NAD stand for?
Thank you!
mamacassidy
·8 months agoNAD = Not As Described
or INAD = Item Not As Described
mamacassidy
·8 months agoI had a remorse return a week or so ago for Doesn't Fit. When it was delivered back to me and I clicked on the page to issue the return, I was not given the option to refund the shipping. (I was given the option to deduct if there was a problem)
This is a screen shot of the page:
trip98
OP8 months agoThank you. @mamacassidy