Payment Dispute Help & Appeal
Someone please help me understand how this payment dispute was ruled against me?
A buyer bought a $10 trading card. I shipped using the EBay Standard Envelope shipping for trading cards, which has issues with the tracking updating correctly sometimes. Cards get delivered without the tracking updating to the final destination, which is frustrating. But most buyers are honest so it's not a big deal, and most orders are insured up to $20.
This card was out for delivery in the correct zip code over a month ago, but never arrived according to the tracking. This happens dozens of times a month with our orders, but the cards are always delivered, the tracking just is screwed up and is done through Ebay, so it's not under anything I can control. But the buyer filed a payment dispute with their credit card company, not EBay, even though the credit card matches the buyers name and address.
Somehow the dispute was ruled in favor of the buyer because the item isn't delivered, and I can't file an insurance claim because the buyer didn't file their missing item claim through Ebay.
Even if the buyer is somehow being completely honest, how am I at fault at all? EBays tracking, Ebays poor verification allowing a stolen credit card (allegedly) or the buyers dishonesty ... and somehow its my fault despite shipping the card correctly and quickly?
And to top things off, filing an appeal is a complete mess. I think I have to chat with an agent to do it, which I will, but that needs some serious updating on the site too.
Because it's only $10 it's not a huge deal but it's just so frustrating and demoralizing when a buyer can be so blatant about their lies and still get away with it because of a faulty EBay tracking system and review policy.
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoThis will be my final post on the topic.
Almost nobody's suggestions were correct, except the first, extremely helpful suggestion from @sin-n-dex .
Insurance ended up covering the payment dispute, as @itscalledapostingid said, the payment dispute would've been won easily had the tracking been updated correctly. Because the tracking never updated, insurance was given.
Everything worked out in the end, and a few helpful people here reminded me why this community is useful, even with the few people who seemingly comment on every single thread with incorrect arguments. Strange, but expected.
Thanks again to everyone!
robbie31415
·2 years agoNothing I said was incorrect, and your situation isn't unique.
Buyer being made whole has nothing to do with insurance.
You will lose to eBay and charge backs if you don't have delivered tracking.
Buyer should be made whole.
You fight for insurance coverage on the side.
I'd suggest reading the policies and coverage that are provided because you don't seem to be aware of them based on your replies.
12345jamesstamps
·2 years agoA dispute with a credit card bank where probably buyer is saying they do not recognize the purchase. You won't win with the bank...and appealing with the bank might charge you $20.
Just file with eBay for a refund which I think eBay does with eBay standard envelope...does take a while to get refunded by eBay though.
itscalledapostingid
·2 years ago@12345jamesstamps
I have seen you make similar comments a few times...Do you know there is more than one type of payment dispute?
"Doesn't recognize the purchase" is a slam dunk win for the seller if you have tracking showing it was delivered to the address on the order.
The seller would have won the 'item not received' payment dispute here if there was tracking to show it was delivered too.
You can read all about payment disputes here:
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/handling-payment-disputes?id=4799
12345jamesstamps
·2 years agoI won 2 disputes. I can only go by my experience.
I lost my first dispute because I didn't know what they were then.
Here's a reply on one: "Here's the dispute outcome":
"The buyer's payment institution sided with you and there's nothing
else you need to do."
"The buyer did not recognize the transaction."
"A decision has been made about the dispute that was filed by------."
"The dispute was found in your favor".
And tracking....I don't usually use it for inexpensive orders.
So one is basically dealing with a bank...eBay steps aside.
So what you read in writing is not always true.
Not sure what experience you might have.
Did I win without using tracking....it's how one approaches a dispute doing in a polite and businesslike way because you are also talking to the bank.
itscalledapostingid
·2 years agoYet you tell people they "won't win with the bank" in a not recognized dispute as I highlighted when I replied to your other post.
Have a nice weekend.
jerseyboymusic
·2 years agoJust a question on a general observation (since I don't do trading cards)... WHY use this ESE thing if it causes so many headaches? Why not use USPS Ground Advantage and bill the buyer for actual shipping?
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoI explained in each of my posts that it doesn't cause headaches in general. Insurance generally works great. My question was specific because the buyer didn't go through EBay, but rather directly to their credit card company. This screws up the insurance claims and has just been a mess. But if the buyer files the claim through EBay, the insurance works great, so the tracking isn't a huge issue.
I like to sell both expensive and cheap cards because a lot of buyers enjoy buying cheap cards to collect. If I sell a card for $1.99, I can't afford to use the Ground Advantage shipping because it's over $4. So the ESE is the only option.
Again, though, it's a good service. This result just isn't logical in my opinion, even if it's in the policy.
jerseyboymusic
·2 years ago@erikscardsandgames just wondering... that's all... I read about so many complaints about the ESE, just was curious
farmalljr
·2 years agoBuyers are NOT requited to file a case with eBay. No one is. They can go directly to the CC company if they want to. Your complaint is a moot point. Setting yourself up in this manner of selling, will sometimes get you this result. It may happen more or less in the future.
dhbookds
·2 years agoDoesn't this program have a delivery guarantee from ebay.........separate from cc claims.........seems like ebay will refund the seller up to $20 if not delivered? But seller has to file a claim with ebay... ???
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoThe claim is through some kind of insurance, but it is an EBay guarantee essentially and not paid for by the seller. I just have to file a claim on a specific site, it's done quickly and It works really well. It's the main reason the tracking issues aren't a big deal generally. I've used it maybe 15 times and never had any issues, but those were all item not delivered claims on EBay specifically.
I was told in the past that a payment dispute outside of EBay wasn't insured, but since a much wiser seller than me suggested I file the claim anyway earlier, I did just that. I'll update when I get the claim response for anyone who finds this in the future.
If it is insured, it's a really long, backwards process but not worth my complaint. But I will update soon. Thanks for all the help, genuinely.
luckythewinner
·2 years agoSomehow the dispute was ruled in favor of the buyer because the item isn't delivered
eBay policy specifically states that you MUST have tracking with a delivery status of "delivered" in order to be eligible for seller protection against payment disputes, which you state that you did not have. This really isn't a "somehow" mystery.
Even if the buyer is somehow being completely honest, how am I at fault at all?
eBay seller protection against payment disputes is about meeting eligibility criteria, which you did not. It is not a determination of "fault".
somehow its my fault despite shipping the card correctly and quickly?
eBay did not say it is your "fault". They said you did not meet the eligibility criteria for seller protection.
it's just so frustrating and demoralizing when a buyer can be so blatant about their lies
You have no idea whether the buyer received the item or not. Your use of the phrase "blatant about their lies" is conjecture.
because of a faulty EBay tracking system and review policy
You MUST have tracking with a delivery status of "delivered" in order to be eligible for seller protection against payment disputes, which you state that you did not have. There is nothing for eBay to "review".
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoThe tracking is done through EBay. It's not a USPS tracking system or any other company. The trading card shipping is created specifically by Ebay, I'm not sure if you've ever used it. There's about a dozen of the same tracking issues for every 500 orders or so.
If they are going to rely on their own tracking system to enforce their policies, it should be a lot more trustworthy or their should be some common sense in the seller protections. Anyone who looks at the issue with any kind of common sense would see that the seller in this situation could not have done anything different.
But thank you for the literal responses to each of my questions, I do appreciate it.
kensgiftshop
·2 years agoEbay doesn't track anything.
Ebay receives their tracking information from USPS.
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoYou can't contact USPS for the Ebay Standard Envelope Tracking. USPS scans it, but only EBay has access to the tracking. This has been confirmed multiple times by both USPS and EBay. It is an ebay system.
wastingtime101
·2 years agoYou are mistaken @erikscardsandgames . ESE is metered mail, a service that is provided by USPS. It does not receive traditional tracking scans and the clerk at the PO counter cannot scan it. The envelope is scanned by USPS sorting machinery at distribution centers along the way.
If you find the tracking on eBay to be lacking, you can track the ESUS number on this site:
https://parcelsapp.com/en
If your item was stuck at "out for delivery" then you should not have tried to fight the dispute. You need that delivered scan to win a non-receipt claim on eBay, and to win a non-receipt claim that comes through as a payment dispute.
You should not have fought the dispute. You should have agreed to pay out then turned around to file the PIP insurance claim.
At this point, you can sill file the insurance claim, however that will only cover the cost of the card. It will not cover the $20 dispute fee that will be charged because you fought and lost the dispute.
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoThe post office is no help with the EBay tracking, was my main point. It was in response to someone saying they would contact USPS. But thank you for the corrections.
I also appreciate the detailed insurance explanations, but my issue was if the item showed up as delivered after I sent the refund, I still wouldn't have gotten the insurance claim, and sometimes the tracking does update days later.
Again, it's $10, it's fine. But the entire process has been a complete disaster. Every company involved is spending more than $10 in administrative work. But hey, at least someone got a free card out of it.
I'm still going back and forth on the insurance claim, but I will update everyone when my claim gets approved or denied. I appreciate all the help.
legacycoins
·2 years agoAnother defender of a billion dollar corporation
goodnu9
·2 years agoI look at it this way, once the PO is in possession of the envelope and accepted with date received, it is out of my hands. I am not responsible after that and the buyer needs to deal with the PO. I do not issue refunds when this happens.
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoAgreed, I didn't send a refund, I disputed it last month with the credit card company. I just lost the ruling today, so EBay just took the money from my account. I had no control over it whatsoever.
kensgiftshop
·2 years agoYes you are.
You are responsible for the item until it is delivered.
It's not the buyers job to deal with USPS because you decide to use some cheap shipping service.
legacycoins
·2 years agoWe do not control the post office, once the item is in the POST OFFICE hands, out of seller control, what do you want me to drive it to the buyer?!
This is why people leave ebay for other platforms with better policies
Stop defending the billion dollar company that does not care if you burn or not
kensgiftshop
·2 years agoNo, you don't control the PO, but you hire them to deliver the package and you're responsible for that package until it is delivered to the buyer.
legacycoins
·2 years agoAlso it CLEARLY states in the listing what shipping service is used, also it is one that buyers like because it saves them money, clearly stated shipping service, all buyers need to read, not our fault ebay protects scammers
robbie31415
·2 years agoMore like bad sellers who think buyers shouldn't be reimbursed when they don't get their purchase.
Sorry doesn't work that way. Buyers are entitled to full refund. This is how it is on every marketplace.
You can fight for an insurance claim, but this should have no impact on the buyer.
If you are unhappy with marketplace rules you are free to make your own website. But guess what If they file a chargeback there you will still lose if you don't have delivered tracking.
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoThese kinds of comments are so worthless.
I agree in general with your points, but I specifically explained why my situation was so frustrating.
The buyer didn't send a message to me on EBay. The package was marked as out for delivery on Feb 22, and on Feb 28 I got a notification that they had filed a dispute with their credit card company and not recognizing the payment. I sent a message to the buyer asking what the issue was and if I could do anything to make the process easier on EBay, instead of having to go through their Credit Card company. I got no response.
At this point, the tracking still showed the item as out for delivery. I figured since the credit card company could match the address they had on file to the address in which I sent the card, it would be an easy decision. But because the tracking never correctly updated, the credit card company sided with the buyer, as you would expect. My issue, again, is that EBay claims to have seller protections in place. What is the point of those seller protections, if in this situation it's not covered at all?
And if I had simply refunded the buyer, and then the tracking updated two or three days later to delivered, my insurance claim would be denied as well. It's just an incredibly long and frustrating process.
kensgiftshop
·2 years agoYes, buyers like it because it's cheaper.
But, it's your choice to offer the cheap service and you get what you pay for.
Myself, as a buyer and seller, I'd rather spend a little more and get more reliable shipping/tracking.
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoWhen I sell a card for $1.99, I can't pay $4.14 for shipping. I appreciate the business lesson though.
farmalljr
·2 years agoThen you can't afford to sell things for 1.99 then. If you are still willing to do it despite that fact, then what are your complaining about? You keep taking the risks.
Will this happen again? Probably.
farmalljr
·2 years agoThat's hilarious. The law says you ARE responsible, 100%. eBay says you ARE responsible, 100%. How you "feel" about it makes zero difference. If a buyer opens a case, you WILL be refunding. and they WILL take the money from your funds/accounts.
If they do that enough, you won't have to worry about thinking you are not responsible, they will just ban you for good. No more problems with refunds then, huh?
sin-n-dex
·2 years ago@erikscardsandgames
File the claim anyway, you will need to provide proof the buyer was refunded. Provide screen shots of the dispute and refund, and they should pay out.
They've paid out to me when the buyer just messaged me to ask for a refund on non-delivered item, they don't have to file an INR claim through eBay for the insurance to pay out.
C.
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoThanks, I'll try that!
erikscardsandgames
OP2 years agoThanks so much!