MBG and payment Dispute protection
Summary: svcheck shared a complex issue regarding a $17,000 sale on eBay, where the buyer, after picking up the item, filed a Money Back Guarantee (MBG) claim, which was resolved in favor of the seller. However, the buyer then filed a partial payment dispute with their credit card company, resulting in a decision favoring the buyer, allowing them to keep both the item and a partial refund of $8,700. iamalwaysright and other participants inquired about the specifics of the MBG claim and the credit card dispute process, highlighting the challenges of the system and offering advice. christworks provided a detailed explanation of possible legal actions and system limitations while others debated the fairness and legality of the situation, citing differences between eBay policies and general legal principles. The discussion was marked by differing opinions on eBay's payment dispute protections and legal recourse for the seller.
Hi to all
Making the short story out of long one
We sold the item for about 17k. Item was picked by the buyer and later they filed MBG claim. MBG claim was resolved in our favor. Buyer filed payment dispute for 1bout 1/2 of it - $8700 or so. Eventually their CC company decided in their favor and they have our item.
here are few what is called million dollar questions:
We suppose to be covered by seller protection as per posted eBay terms and Conditions (see the link)
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-policies/payment-dispute-seller-protections?id=5293
here is the text :
Eligible scenarios and excluded transactions
The payment dispute relates to an eBay Money Back Guarantee case that was already resolved with:
eBay determining that the seller met their obligations to the buyer
I called ebay they say - nope in this case somehow it is not covered
How so buyer can file PARTIAL payment diuspute and win it ? I never seen that in direct CC transactions
Bigger question is how so they can keep the item and a money?? I never seen it before either. CC should mandate them to return it back to us. It is also illegal for Buyer to keep the item and a money
I would love to hear from ebay management about this and how we (sellers) can protect from such chargeback so at least we can get the item back
By the way, i would love to know his CC company. That is a way to go - keep almost 10K and the item
gurlcat
·2 weeks agoIs there some way to "unsubscribe" from notifications about new replies to a particularly tedious post?
inhawaii
·2 weeks agoThe buyer could have filed a dispute for the FULL amount and won it.
Are you not aware that any buyer can rip off any seller simply by making a false claim?
There is a saying amongst ebay sellers...
"Don't sell anything on eBay that you can't afford to lose."
BTW The word "liquidators" on your store banner in misspelled.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agothanks about the banner. we will fix it
chapeau-noir
·2 weeks agoJust an aside (and don't get all mad) but you've got some big typos in your store's splash page:
SIENTIFIC AND LAB EQUIPMENT
svcheck
OP2 weeks agolol, thanks, will fire my designer and hire a new one
chapeau-noir
·2 weeks agoOr you could just fix the typo (occurs twice). Optics matter.
mod-paul
·2 weeks agoHi everyone,
This discussion has gotten a bit heated. Please remember that, while it is fine to disagree with others, discussion should always remain friendly and respectful as required by the Community Guidelines.
You can review our Community Guidelines here: https://community.ebay.com/forum/about-the-community-57910/topic/ebay-community-guidelines-465340/
Thank you for your cooperation.
eBay Community Moderation Team
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 weeks agoThe issuing bank makes it decision on payment disputes using your representation in response to the dispute.
Usually the bulk of your response is what you typed in when you were notified of the dispute. Some sellers do not realize this and do not provide enough information to the bank.
The fact that you have won Ebay INAD MBG claims is a surprise to many of the posters on this thread and is a reason why you are seeing skepticism.
It probably also contributes to why Ebay has not offered you the protections you expected.
If your response to the dispute does not reflect the information you provided to the MBG defense your may be seeing a loss of protection because your inconsistency has created the appearance of an untruth, in which case your protection might be invalidated. I would not expect Ebay to tell you if that was the case. Their lawyers might tell your lawyer, at some point if the situation escalates.
I have chosen my words carefully, not to offend you, though I would still expect them to be unwelcome.
svcheck
OP2 weeks ago · EditedCommunication with 3rd party financial institutions via eBay dispute process is pretty fruitless. Point of my post was a simple one - why are we not covered by PAYMENT DISPUTE SELLER PROTECTION. That is it. nothing else
but i got response today from ebay. in short - eat it and make no difference what is posted in terms and conditions. we (ebay) are not going to take a loss of this size. which basically addressed the issue
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 weeks agoIf you appear to be other than honest, that would alter the outcome of whether Ebay's protection applies.
There are overarching requirements for your actions other than the specific policies you quoted.
Everything which happens, can be affected by other portions of the agreement which may alter the applicability of what you are relying on.
This is common to contract law, and often ignored by individuals who are not used to interpreting contracts.
Not an accusation, but something you have to take into account, or your lawyer will take into account before any action is taken.
If any part of your representation for the payment dispute contradicts your filing for the MBG, it could yield the result you have seen.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agowas not, see my previous reply. i already got this answered by ebay management
powell-collectibles
·2 weeks agoThings seems to be getting heated and confrontational. Longtime community members, please be mindful to be welcoming. No need to shout down the OP and demand that he shows evidence to your satisfaction. It is supposed to be a discussion, not an exhibition.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoThanks. i posted listing. Not sure what evidence they are looking for. screenshot of MB G? trust me it is there. no point to share it.
mam98031
·2 weeks agoI think the other @jonathanbrightlight was clear. They are looking for support for your opinion that credit card companies can require a customer to return an item to the seller before issuing them a refund. We do understand the MBG, so no problem there at all. And I think all or most of us agree with you that Ebay should have protected you if you won the INAD the buyer initially filed in Ebay. However you haven't shared with us how you won that case. What did Ebay rule and why?
powell-collectibles
·2 weeks agoDefinitely he did. I don’t know what it is – some people just like to argue. I could see it going that way. When people start demanding that the OP does something, like he works for us, It’s getting a little bit odd. Heck, you get comments, being removed, and people thinking better of it and editing their own messages to take out the more confrontational stuff.
mam98031
·2 weeks agoYour word choices often change the complete meaning of what someone says. That is intentional because it happens all the time and isn't by accident.
NO ONE "demanded" that the OP do anything. They were asked for the information, which clearly the OP is not willing to give as they haven't answered the requests at this time. No one is "arguing" here except maybe your posts. The rest are simply trying to get information to provide proper information to help the OP. It is nothing more than that no matter how you want to reframe it.
"...you get comments, being removed, and people thinking better of it and editing their own messages to take out the more confrontational stuff." Now that is a LEAP of epic size. I edited my posts, NOT because there was something confrontational with them, but because what I posted wasn't quite right for the concerns on the thread. I had misunderstood something so I decided to edit the post so there was no misunderstandings. When we edit our own posts, it does NOT mean we have done something wrong.
As for comments getting removed, I can't speak to anything that has happened to you or anyone else, but only to me directly. And yes, I have in the past had posts removed. Mine were not removed because I was "confrontational" or broke a rule, but because I was responding to someone that did get their comment removed for being Confrontational or broke some rule. Leaving my comments would make no sense since the originating comment I was responding to was no longer there. You certainly like to assume stuff to be sure.
powell-collectibles
·2 weeks agoYou assume that I am referring to you. Not sure why. I didn’t mention you. I didn’t write “you.“ and, yes – there is somebody trying to be pretty aggressive by demanding things. That’s just my take. If you have a different one, that’s OK. I can see how it goes – it’s the same old thing with a certain person and anyone knew that dare is to criticize or have a different take or opinion on things. It’s OK – it takes all kinds, right? I’m just asking for a little bit of toning down of things. I’m sorry if you think that is against what I should be doing. Personally I think we can all use a little bit more love and understanding – less fighting more hugging. Not everyone agrees.
mam98031
·2 weeks agoYou are right, I did. Why, you ask? The most likely reason was you were responding to MY POST. Maybe you didn't mean to have that response to me, but it was and I just responded, nothing more. I think I covered what I wanted to say.
I said nothing about your opinions or anyone else's. Word choices, yes, because you often change what others have said by choosing a word that inspires conflict. But I've said what I needed. I wish you well, I've made my point, you are free to do whatever you feel is necessary.
mam98031
·2 weeks agoExcept that no one was doing that. Explaining how something works and providing links to support it is not a confrontation, it is providing information so that the OP can consider it. This OP simply doesn't believe any of us, but still that doesn't make for a "confrontation", posters are being respectful, we just don't agree with the OP's position. There is nothing wrong with that and it doesn't make for a conflict on the thread, simply a different outlook on the subject at hand.
jonathanbrightlight
·2 weeks agoYou know how much you’re making up in this comment.
powell-collectibles
·2 weeks agoNot Sure if you are looking for an answer. Is the answer B?
svcheck
OP2 weeks agowas looking from answer from ebay moderators about the rules of engagement. what is covered and what is not as this is a first time i had such an issue with the chargeback with MBG closed prior to it.
stephenmorgan
·2 weeks agoYou will probably need a Court Order to get the name of the Bank.
File a Notice of Dispute so someone can review your situation. Consider that you may need to go to Court or have a Arbitration Hearing to resolve this. Use eBay's Notice of Dispute form. Also read Section 19 of the User Agreement.
Notice of Dispute
https://www.ebay.com/legalhelpcenter
Legal Disputes
https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/member-behavior-policies/user-agreement?id=4259&st=12&pos=1&query=User%20Agreement&intent=arbritration&docId=HELP1313#18
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoLOL, very fast way to close your ebay account once and for all
tools*
·2 weeks agoThis is an example of why I will never accept anything but cash or a wire transfer (or Zelle or Venmo up to their limits) for something that is picked up.
adamcartwright
·2 weeks agoEBay adds the credit card option on local pickup listings.
How do you get around that?
tools*
·2 weeks agoBy saying no.
adamcartwright
·2 weeks ago · EditedHow do you prevent buyer from paying with a credit card?
I can imagine corresponding with a buyer who made an offer and telling him you'll accept $XX if he pays cash, but even then he could still pay by card.
tools*
·2 weeks agoYou refund the payment and say no thanks.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoTill today it was not an issue, since chargebacks were resolved previously in our favor providing that MBG claim was closed in our favor too
But you are right. that what i will do if ebay confirms that they change the procedure and do not cover charge back by seller protection
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoyes, we had that prfocedure before ebay enacted seller protection , now it charnged again
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoit is actually easy - you can refuse it with no ebay issues for these out of area. for local is not an issue at all. we have the sign off process and they sign the well crafted documents and if they want to play around they will find out very fast how not to do it with the leagl process
out of ara is a different issue all together
seattlesportstuff
·2 weeks agoSorry you sold it through eBay.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agolol. thanks
inhawaii
·2 weeks agoNo sense giving this OP any advice.
He/she seems to know it all.
stainlessenginecovers
·2 weeks agoWhy would ANYONE sell an item for $17000 and NOT have the buyer pay cash, in person???
Any 'electronic' payment can be challenged, back-charged etc.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoRead ebay rules . YOU MUST provide electronic payment option. It is not our choice
gurlcat
·2 weeks agoNow it's our turn to not say something. I know what I would do in this case. Bet you do too @stainlessenginecovers . 😉
stainlessenginecovers
·2 weeks ago@svcheck and after reading those 'ebay rules' I would have opted to NOT sell it this way.
MORE than obvious.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoone of the ideas..
powell-collectibles
·2 weeks ago100%! Well, not quite. I’d also accept Zelle or PayPal, Venmo “friends and family” - not anything that could be pulled back by a bad actor.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoInteresting. I think ebay only allows payment listed on ebay site. none of these what you have mentioned, but i will check
mam98031
·2 weeks agoThe following payment methods are offered at checkout on eBay.com:
PayPal
PayPal Credit
Credit card or debit card
Apple Pay
Google Pay
Venmo
Klarna
Alipay
Spendable funds
Payment upon pickup
Wire transfer facilitated by eBay (select categories only)
eBay gift card or eBay voucher or eBay Bucks
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoyou are correct, but not for the" local pick up only"
powell-collectibles
·2 weeks agoThe point is that when selling for pick up there is often a requirement of cash or similar. Seems to make sense – that’s one of the benefits for the seller of selling in person. And for the buyer – he can look at the item, inspected, counter, no real surprises. So that buyer pays in cash or an equivalent.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoyes, you are right, and for years we were refusing to take any ebay CC Payment for local pick up if buyer is out of area, but ebay change it few years back stating that they will protect us from chargeback as long as prior MBG was closed against the buyer. Now we are learning something new and we may revert again to refusing them to move item out of area
svcheck
OP2 weeks agonot any: wire/zelle are never, and ACH only a few days and it is complicated so in reality is not
oldwestgold
·2 weeks agoWell, in reviewing what and how much you sell, I would imagine you have at least one attorney on retainer. I would suggest calling them and turning this over to them to take care of it instead of wasting your time coming here for help. They can also communicate with eBay attorneys.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoit is more complex. first of all you have no means to talk to ebay attorneys . you agreed by accepting ebay TS that you will not d it. second it would cost way more than 10K and suing someone in different state is very expensive option
mam98031
·2 weeks agoI think you may have misunderstood. The Ebay Attorneys would not be representing you on anything. They are Ebay's attorneys and only work in the best interest of Ebay.
The cost is much less in Small Claims court and some states are still doing Zoom [or similar] cases. You will need to check the state in which your buyer is in.
Here you can get the info for California Small Claims Court.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoy can't sue someone out of state in Small claims court. you have to use him in his state. you can start in yours but he will challenge jurisdiction and transfer to his
mam98031
·2 weeks agoYes you can. You just need to file in their / the buyer's state. Google it and find out how and what is required of you. You certainly have enough money at stake here to warrant a bit of work to get the money back.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoLOL, sure, been in courts multiple times and know how it works. way too much for 9K issue. Initial retainer would be close to 10K for corporate litigations
mam98031
·2 weeks agoOK. Small claims court is VERY different from the regular court system. But if you feel it would take too much of your time, that is a choice that only you can make.
IDK who you would be giving a retainer to, you are not allowed to have a lawyer representing you in a Small Claims case and I doubt that you have ever been in a Small Claims case and had a lawyer representing you. That is the purpose of Small Claims courts. To enable people to try and recover money and/or property from others without going through the expensive regular court system.
Again, your choice to make and I respect that. IDK that there is any reason to discuss this anymore as you will just need to come to the realization you have lost this money and move on. I know it is a lot of money and it hurts, but if you are unwilling to utilize tools available to you, then that will be the outcome. I wish you well.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agops, and to my knowledge you have to be resident there. doubt that you can file in another state in Small claim court as non resident. i think you have to file with Superior Court. I can explore it later. may be an idea...
mam98031
·2 weeks agoClearly you feel you have the correct information about filing in Small Claims court, but you do not. You must file in the state the defendant is in. And 1,000's of people do it all the time. You can to if you change your mind.
funfactorychannel
·2 weeks agoHe is not saying sueing the buyer..
He saying use your attorney to talk to ebay attorneys in arbitration according to the policy covered..
svcheck
OP2 weeks agothere are provision about it in ebay TS..
funfactorychannel
·2 weeks agobut isnt the TS says if there are issues we go through arbitration? your saying we arent allowed arbitration?
svcheck
OP2 weeks agohave you ever been in Superior Court or arbitration involving corporate case?
funfactorychannel
·2 weeks agoI been in arbitration I was on the corporate side.. but what does that have to do with not able to do arbitration according to Terms of Service?
oldwestgold
·2 weeks ago · EditedYou are incorrect. My Attorney & I have communicated with eBay Attorneys on several occasions via certified mail. You really sound as if you do not want any advice, so I will move on. One thing I do know for sure: you are wasting your time here.
svcheck
OP2 weeks agoi actually would be interested to hear about it. what was a issue and what was an outcome?
christworks
·3 weeks ago · Edited@svcheck You have left out some key details. Whether you'll answer my questions given your lack of response to questions by others, I don't know. I'll play along for now...
When the chargeback case was filed, did the email from eBay state they would handle the chargeback on your behalf or was it your responsibility to handle the chargeback?
If the answer to that question is the latter, then I have a few more questions for you.
1) Did you respond to the chargeback before the deadline?
2) What evidence did you submit to prove your case?
You are correct in that there are seller protections in place, however, you must meet multiple requirements for those seller protections to apply to your specific case. I hope you will answer my questions so we can figure out whether you are actually supposed to be protected here. I can help you get this in front of the right eyeballs, but only if you are forthcoming with more information.
Also, you are mixing together three separate things: eBay policy, the credit-card dispute process, and the Uniform Commercial Code—UCC, not “USCC.”
You may be correct that the buyer violated eBay’s policy by losing the eBay Money Back Guarantee case, then opening a chargeback to get a second bite at the apple. The credit card company does not care about that. That issue is between eBay and that buyer. eBay could certainly take action on that buyer's account, but if they do they aren't going to tell you that.
Partial credit-card disputes are permitted. In fact, the UCC contradicts your claim that a buyer can never retain the merchandise and receive money. Under UCC §2-714, a buyer who accepts allegedly nonconforming goods may keep them and seek damages based on the difference between their value as received and their value as warranted. That could explain why approximately half of a $17,000 purchase was disputed rather than the entire amount.
That does not establish that this particular buyer deserved $8,700. We do not have enough information to determine that. But the credit-card company was not necessarily required to order the item returned before granting a partial chargeback.
Finally, the item does not automatically become “stolen property” because a chargeback was granted. You might have a civil claim for breach of contract, unjust enrichment, conversion, or return of the property, depending on the facts. Theft or possession of stolen property requires much more than an unfavorable chargeback decision.
If the item was as represented and the buyer suffered no loss approaching $8,700, then keeping both the item and that refund could constitute an improper windfall and potentially support claims like I described above. Your problem is proving it: the item is now in the buyer’s possession, making an independent inspection or appraisal difficult; you may never see the evidence the buyer submitted to the card issuer; eBay and the bank may provide only limited explanations; condition and market value can be subjective; and pursuing discovery through litigation—possibly in another state—could require substantial filing, attorney, expert-witness, and travel expenses. A chargeback decision does not prove the buyer actually suffered $8,700 in damages, but practically speaking, overturning that outcome may require you to establish the item’s condition and value with photographs, pickup documentation, expert opinions, messages, and other evidence that should ideally have been preserved before the buyer took possession.
(Edit to add an aside to the last thought of the above paragraph: Oftentimes people here will say a seller should never photograph items as they pack them, etc. as it is a waste of time as eBay does not consider that type of evidence in 99% of cases. While that is likely true for most items most sellers sell, if something is valuable - whatever you determine that threshold to be - it can be wise to have some documentation in the event there is an issue outside the scope of eBay. If there is ever a civil claim against a buyer worth fighting, this kind of documention could make a difference between whether an attorney accepts the case or turns you down.)
In theory you could hire an attorney to send a strongly worded demand letter that threatens a civil suit if they fail to return the merchandise. If the buyer is a professional scammer, they likely know such a letter isn't worth the paper it is written on.
Your strongest argument is eBay’s policy regarding protection. As I noted that policy comes with strings attached and, simply put, I have no idea whether those strings apply to your case because you've not given enough detail.
gurlcat
·3 weeks agoNot sure why you posted here. I see multiple attempts to get more information from you about the details of the return and the chargeback, but you're being rather cagey and just keep insisting the policies and even the law is on your side. If that's true, then what do you need us for?