Maybe doing a chargeback isn't so easy after all?
I've read so many horror stories about chargebacks on these boards.
I was under the impression that for a buyer it would be a piece of cake, but apparently not.
I bought 5 pairs of safety glasses from a online vendor.
I paid with PayPal.
These fragile glasses were shipped in a Priority Mail padded envelope.
They arrived totally crushed but the glasses appeared to be ok.
However two of the five glasses were opened.
Not just opened but the original packaging was missing.
Totally useless to me for re-sale.
I reached out to the vendor and was ignored.
Only when I filed a NAD dispute with paypal did they answer me.
All I wanted was to return the two glasses (at my expense) for a refund.
I didn't think that was unreasonable.
They told me NO because their ten day return window had passed.
I then escalated my paypal claim to a chargeback.
I thought to myself if there ever was a "slam dunk" for a chargeback, this was it.
Two weeks later I was notified by paypal that I lost the dispute.
Maybe doing a chargeback as a customer isn't so easy after all.
gurlcat
·2 years agoThis thread has put me down one long rabbit hole memory lane @inhawaii , because elements of it reminded me of a chargeback case that I won (as the seller) and Paypal was the processor. So I've gone back and found my posts about the situation -it was 2 years ago, fall of 2021, so I don't know how much may be different now. The funny thing about that case was it was my first chargeback, and the advice that the eBay CSR gave me made no sense (just upload the tracking, even though this was an INAD case NOT an INR!), so I reluctantly followed her advice. While waiting for the 30 day case to end, everyone told me that CSR was wrong, in fact another eBay employee looked up her notes and said she shouldn't have even advised on a payment dispute; only MP employees are supposed to do that.
Well anyway, I WON the dispute. But it was a victory with an asterisk, because I didn't know why I won, and I wanted very much to know why, because what if this happened again in the future, but with a much more expensive item? Why did the tracking matter? Was it really about the fact that the buyer didn't even attempt a return before doing the chargeback?
So I decided to just try and see if a Paypal employee would give me some insider info. I must have been on an incredible lucky streak, because I somehow immediately got hold of a guy who was willing to yack away FOR 35 MINUTES, when I wasn't even their customer.
Here's the summary of that discussion, in 2021. I realize the 'eBay' factor doesn't apply to your situation but most of this probably does. Like Paypal has your seller's website return policy in their files.
25kenwood
·2 years agoI had a similar cut-and-dry case, where the seller was obviously in the wrong. I was shocked when PayPal denied it. Posted on 9/7/23 here:
https://www.bbb.org/us/ny/port-washington/profile/industrial-supply/global-industrial-0121-143415/complaints#37562159
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 years agoSlightly off topic. Got an email tonight. PayPal is no longer covering INR CC Chargebacks under Seller Protection effective in January 2024.
rugerskick
·2 years agoI both buy and sell, and I have no idea how the seller won this chargeback. Terrible pack job with breakable items.
toomuchstuffagain35
·2 years agoSometimes you win and sometimes you lose, often with no telling why.
marnotom!
·2 years ago@rugerskick
1. This wasn't a chargeback
2. The OP wasn't claiming damage to the safety glasses themselves.
sdneped
·2 years agoOn PayPal the terbiology is you'll first "Open a destitute" in the Ramification Center -- but somehow the next section calls it a "case" now, strangely indecisive.
Then within 20 days -- or it'll be too late -- you'll return to "excoriate your case to a clam" for PayPal to revue, see here.
marnotom!
·2 years agoOn PayPal, the dispute process has two stages. The first stage is to open a case, and during that stage the buyer and seller have up to 20 days to work things out without PayPal getting involved. If things aren't working out in that stage, the buyer can upgrade the case to a claim for PayPal to review.
It looks as though that page may have been edited or partially written sometime down the line to include the term "dispute" but in the process the term "case" ended up not getting defined properly.
I believe that all this is handled by eBay/Managed Payments with the seller's cooperation if a PayPal dispute over an eBay sale is made, however.
sapphire_studio
·2 years agoI had something arrived extremely damaged because it was shipped in only a poly bag when it should have been a box that I bought from walmart. Walmart refused to help me and told me specifically to file a charge back and they would put it in the notes that they told me to. My credit card not only denied me but they charged me Interest on that money that was frozen during the investigation time. I never let my credit card debt lapse (and have to pay interest) so it was beyond frustrating. That was very recently and the only chargeback I have ever filed.
gurlcat
·2 years agoFrom what it sounds like, Paypal makes it hard or impossible for a buyer to do the ethical thing, get satisfaction with the least amount of harm to the seller, like return only the dissatisfactory portion of a multi-item purchase, as opposed to getting a full refund on the whole order, without having to return anything. I've always admired Paypal for a myriad of reasons, but if this discrepancy is true, it sure can't contribute to a safe and thriving online experience for sellers OR buyers.
marnotom!
·2 years agoWell, bear in mind that the reason why @inhawaii had to go to PayPal in the first place was that they received no response from the seller when they inquired by email about a partial return. Was the seller trying to stall out and let the ten-day return window lapse, or had inhawaii already waited too long to contact the seller? We'll probably never know.
inhawaii
OP2 years agoI immediately contacted the vendor.
Did this 2 or 3 times and was ignored.
Finally left them a voice mail and they emailed me back but ignored my rely to that email.
In the paypal dispute they made like they were trying to get ahold of me and I ignored them.
Paypal's "official" reason for denying my claim was that I admitted the glasses were not damaged.
carlmarxx
·2 years agoIf they where not broken during shipping ,then what was the reason for a snad , other then buyer's remorse? I do find it intresting that the seller got away with a 10 day return .
gurlcat
·2 years ago2 of the pairs of glasses did not come with their original sleeves. The seller must have chucked them, in order to make the whole order fit into the package they wanted to use.
marnotom!
·2 years agoThanks for that bit of explanation, @inhawaii. There are still a lot of unanswered questions connected to your situation, but I appreciate that you didn't start this thread for an in-depth investigation into your purchase.
It largely seems to boil down to the vendor's 10-day return policy, if you were inside or outside of it, and what sort of conditions are associated with it. It also sounds as though the vendor doesn't embrace the idea of partial refunds, possibly because they've been burned by buyers abusing this avenue, and that may be why they were less than cooperative with you over an issue of missing packaging.
Hindsight being 20-20 and all that, you may have been better off pursuing a full refund and "settling" for a partial in the first-stage ("dispute") of your dealings with PayPal when you can negotiate with the seller. I could be wrong, but I think once PayPal gets involved (in the "claim" process), there's little to no possibility of a partial refund.
But the long and short of it is, what was filed here wasn't a chargeback.
sakic92710
·2 years agoI don't believe it should be a 'piece of cake' or 1000s of sellers could get screwed around on a consistent basis. eBay already makes it to easy for buyers to get away with frivolous returns & refunds. Every action against sellers shouldn't be cut & dry. 🙂
marnotom!
·2 years agoAm I the only one who's now thoroughly confused about what's going on here? I thought the term "chargeback" referred to charge disputes made through a credit card issuer, but it looks as though some posters are referring to a "PayPal chargeback." All I know for sure is that @inhawaii went through two steps in order to make the return/get a partial refund.
My recollection of when I went through the PayPal buyer protection process years ago was that the buyer first files a dispute with PayPal which gives the seller and the buyer some time to work things out on their own. If that goes nowhere, then the dispute can be escalated to a claim where PayPal acts as an intermediary between the two parties. It's now sounding like this is what happened here, and @inhawaii has not filed an actual chargeback with their credit card issuer.
Has the term "chargeback" broadened in scope since my INR claim made through PayPal many years ago?
slippinjimmy
·2 years agoNo it hasn't! The word chargeback is misused here almost as much as the inability to correctly refer to buyers as buyers and sellers as sellers.
In the world of payments the word "chargeback" specifically refers to a dispute via a claim with the credit card company that issued the card used by a buyer.
richard1rst
·2 years agoYES! But let us not forget that in addition to be a payment processor Paypal also issues credit and debit cards. In my example above I paid with my Paypal DEBIT card. There was NO other credit card company or bank involved in the transaction. The charge back (which was approved) was handled by Paypal since they were the originating source of the funds. So, yes, "charge back" is the correct term to use for Paypal as in my case. And, by the way, this is not the first time. I even got a Paypal charge back approved against the U S Post Office for postage under the claim "Item Not Received" (the "item" being the postage charge for delivery of my package which was never delivered).
slippinjimmy
·2 years agoDoing a chargeback IS easy, you did not do a "chargeback" you opened a return claim for damaged in transit via PayPal.
If you had made a purchase from eBay and made the same type of payment claim but did not do it until more than 30 days after delivery the result would have been exactly the same.
If you had done a REAL chargeback the outcome would have been different. If you used existing funds in your PayPal account or a transfer from your bank account you wouldn't even be able to do a "chargeback".
This is why smart buyers, no matter where they shop always use a credit card for payment as that is the only way to ensure full protection.
gurlcat
·2 years agoI would change "smart" to "fully informed" so as not to imply that inhawaii is not smart, but I for one appreciate this clarification. I've heard it before but it's good to get a reminder, now that I have my first credit card in several years. I accepted the offer of it with the "only for emergencies" idea, but on further reflection, if I have the money in my bank to buy something, I can always use that same amount to immediately repay my credit card, with no interest, after using the credit card to make the purchase. It's a bit more of a P.I.T.A. so I won't do it every time, but with people or platforms I've not bought from before, it's not a bad idea. So thanks for your reply.
Incidentally Slippin' Jimmy, look what I have paused in another tab this very moment. The final 9.5 minutes of Better Call Saul. I'm stalling because my heart is fracturing with every passing minute, knowing I'm about to be 100% finished with the Breaking Bad universe (yes I already saw El Camino).
sextons-sweet-deals
·2 years agoI have to agree to another eBay post of: The race for most helpful Authors is on!!
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 years agoAdding another middleman - PayPal on a credit card transaction is not likely to help you when there is a dispute.
It adds delay to the process, and adds another set of rules.
I know lots of Ebayers are used to using PayPal to pay, but it may not be to their benefit when things go wrong.
retro_entertainment_collectibles
·2 years agoI'm not sure how PayPal or Adyen for that matter deal with CB's internally as they both are merchant account providers and aggregate processors. I can tell you when we were with EMS Systems as our merchant account provider Wells Fargo was our processor. Wells Fargo did the dispute mitigation as they are independent of the buyer bank card, account provider and our bank. This is why when we'd a charge back it was instantly $75 gone no matter the charge amount, $1, wouldn't matter. That was $25 to EMS Systems, $25 to Wells Fargo and $25 fee from our bank (Chase) for the pleasure of reserving the $1 from our account. We used processing software called PC Charge, lease, $1400 annually thereabouts and come pre-configured, that is to say, locked to the providers like a Cellphone might be locked to TMobile.
After some years we switched to Card Service International who is both a merchant account provider and an aggregate processor. Those units at CSI completely independent of each other. CSI had a web interface albeit we bought processing software outright called IC Verify and used that. However when a dispute of charge occur we could respond via the Web Interface .vs. snail mail and that save us $25 or more. That is to say, with EMS/Wells back in the day they only allowed snail mail arbitration.
So say, you're circumstance and we were the seller. Initially as I said, it cost us $75 instantly. We respond to the chargeback written, that's another $25. You the consumer respond to our written defense lets say, we in writing respond to that, another $25 fee. Card Service's web interface allowed us to manage disputes without that continual $25 fee everytime we respond.
Now with PayPal when they came unto the scene Card Service warned us because PP was fronted by the Deutsche Bank as I recall, based in Germany. That means they governed under differing laws that Card Service albeit Visa/MC have rules, no matter where. Discover and American Express were not options at PP at least at startup as those entities did not agree to terms apparently. We processed all four and obviously have to apply to become a merchant accepting them, Amex is by far the most difficult. Amex as a consumer card entity is also the most protective of their customers by far. If you recall back in the day Amex used to advertise on TV shopping all over the world w/ max protection.
All that said and done one can only assume that Adyen or PayPal CB units are also independent of the rest of the operations as independent arbitration needs be there. It is what it is but the question comes to bare about "Is there a better way for eBay as a company and what might that look like?"
Clearly eBay is and has made strides in that direction towards certain types of high risk merchandise with authentication services. When you consider scope of all merchandise, well, thats insanity and it still really doesn't address many problems. eBay can authenticate a Coach purse but when the customer gets it and claims in smooshed and damaged in transit, welp... Problems. There really doesn't exist a 100% way to properly protect sellers and buyers, thats a big problem here at eBay IMHO.
I'm 150% sure eBay has considered numerous mechanisms whereby better safety for transacting partners has been discussed but no matter how one looks at it, each comes with its own set of aggregated problems. Likely why the company sticks with feedback, simplicity that covers broadband scope.
Now folks be they sellers or buyers who have poor experiences care say, "eBay doesn't care about sellers", "Buyer: eBay only cares about their sellers." Reality be neither statement is true or factual, eBay cares about both, they have to. Its the balancing act that is a truly formidable challenge and literally there is no company in online transacting that has done this better than eBay, not a one. Of course when one's victim be that buyer or seller it sure wont feel that way but that doesn't change the reality.
12345jamesstamps
·2 years agoThe easy and fast way is to go online with your banking institution and dispute the purchase with your debit or credit card. It's all about how one does a credit card chargeback.
marnotom!
·2 years agoIt sounds as though this was handled by PayPal as a return rather than a NAD dispute. I suspect that if you were planning on returning the whole kit and kaboodle as NAD, you would have been successful with your dispute.
Did you indicate the same intentions to return a partial shipment when you filed a chargeback with your card issuer?
wastingtime101
·2 years agoYou bring up a good point @marnotom! . PayPal allows you the opportunity to file a dispute for a partial $ amount. Did you file for the full amount or a partial based on 2 items being not as described @inhawaii ?
If you filed for partial then I stick to what I said above about the vendor's return policy being the reason you didn't win. If you can't show you tried to resolve this within the vendor's return window, that works against you.
mickmeymouse
·2 years agoWhat, couldn't find those on eBay? 😂
sextons-sweet-deals
·2 years agoI think you answered my question.
The O.P. did not buy the glasses on eBay. Is that correct?
I was wondering why they opened a case with PayPal and not through eBay.
ajs_coins_and_alchemy
·2 years agoLine 3 of original post, "i bought from a online vendor"
I believe that indicates not EBay
wastingtime101
·2 years agoOP sourced the items from the company that makes them in order to resell on eBay @sextons-sweet-deals . This is about inventory sourcing which is probably why this was posted on the selling board, not the buying board.
sextons-sweet-deals
·2 years agoWhat buying board?
Seems this post has nothing to do with an eBay transaction at all, so why is it even posted?
inhawaii
OP2 years agoI thought I would post about my chargeback experience on this board that has lots of posts about chargebacks. Sorry if it offended you in any way. Feel free to...
A) Ignore it
B) Report it
C) Complain about it
farmalljr
·2 years agoThe items were not as described. Appeal the chargeback decision or go directly to your CC provider and file a charge back. I sure hope you did not wait 10+ days to open the package. We sellers have a duty to be honest with descriptions. Buyers have a whole lot of protections. If Paypal doesn't want to cover you like they should, then I would force them to through your CC provider.
dhbookds
·2 years agoif he paid with paypal funds.........no cc involved?
If he'd passed the time window (10 days) specified by the seller (not an ebay seller) that could be the reasoning.......tho I thought paypal had extended time....like cc.
simba6
·2 years agoYou will win a charge back but you have to stick with it. It takes more than one go around to get your money back. The first round they hope you will just go away. After that a real person will review it. You are correct it's not all that easy.
25kenwood
·2 years agoNot with PayPal these days. They are denying seemingly cut and dry cases.
Here is my situation from this year (my complaint is on 9/7/23):
https://www.bbb.org/us/ny/port-washington/profile/industrial-supply/global-industrial-0121-143415/complaints#37562159
dhbookds
·2 years agowhy did paypal find against you?
wastingtime101
·2 years agoThat could be what killed it for you. When you file a payment dispute and the vendor has the opportunity to fight the dispute, they can point to their return policy to support their case.
This is the same company that you just went to battle with on the VeRO claim - you're probably not in their good graces right now.
Sell the glasses as preowned at a 15% discount, then in the description state new without packaging. They have the UPC sticker on them. They're not unsellable.
jnybuysell
·2 years agoOnly dispute I have ever filed I Lost quickly and matter of factly.
vintagecraze50
·2 years agoI guess some independent vendors have good chargeback protection wherever they do business.
cool.jewels.by.jeff
·2 years agoContact your credit card company you have on file with paypal and talk to them. If its a bank contact them. Id ship them back with signature confirmation and tracking. Once they are signed for show the credit card company proof. You will get refunded. If they decline the delivery you will get refunded and get to keep the item once its returned. Unless your leaving some vital info out.
lacemaker3
·2 years ago@inhawaii
Perhaps you should have opened the chargeback with your credit card company directly, instead of with PayPal. (I didn't know that you could do a chargeback through PayPal, TBH.)
Can you still do that? Open another chargeback, and let your CC make the final decision?
I always figured that the CC was the final arbiter, after PayPal.
vintagecraze50
·2 years agoYes, you do always have the opportunity I think even on PP to go directly to the card issuer.
richard1rst
·2 years agoI can't speak for inhawaii but as for me I used my Paypal debit card to make the original purchase so Paypal was the right avenue to use for the charge back. There was neither a CC company nor my bank involved.
lacemaker3
·2 years agoDisputing through PayPal is called a PayPal dispute, not a chargeback.
IMO a chargeback is done with the credit card company, not through PayPal.
As far as I can see it is still possible for OP to open a chargeback with the CC company, which would be the final arbiter for the dispute.
carlmarxx
·2 years agoOP could file with bank or credit card they have on file with paypal for payments. the snad will be tough to prove .
lux.ra_14
·2 years agoI've seen a lot of boneheaded packaging, but plastic safety glasses in a padded envelope? That's a seller just asking for trouble.
richard1rst
·2 years agoWell, just to balance the story.
I bought a custom printed vinyl sign from an online vendor.
The overall size of the sign was specified AND the size of the artwork within the sign was specified.
They got them both wrong
I contacted the vendor. No response.
I filed a charge back with Paypal and, although it took a couple of weeks, the charge back was approved and I got a full refund. And I didn't even have to return the original.
I guess it depends on whether Ahura Mazda or Ahriman is in charge that day.
mickmeymouse
·2 years ago@richard1rst
That last bit there. Ya killin' me!!! LOL!!!