eBay needs to stop letting buyers leave feedback on declined returns
Summary: The discussion revolves around the topic that eBay should not allow buyers to leave feedback on returns that have been declined. spacecoastparts initiated the conversation, expressing concerns about this policy. Several participants, including authentic*vintage and gurlcat, engaged in the conversation, supporting the idea that the feedback system on declined returns is problematic. Although there are multiple layers of interaction, the core issue remains focused on the flaw in allowing feedback on declined returns and how it can negatively impact sellers.
What is the point of letting buyers leave feedback if they request a remorse return that can be declined? They're only going to trash the seller with some false slanderous nonsense that WON'T be removed as eBay's removal policy is crafted around a buyer's words. Sure, there may be the occasional buyer that ONLY mentions they weren't allowed to return the item, and that can be removed, but let's face it we as sellers know the buyer is upset and will say all types of things in retaliation. All of that other nonsense eBay considers "buyer experience" and renders the feedback ineligible for removal.
Logically, if a buyer opens a remorse return instead of INAD, that means the buyer didn't have an issue with the item or transaction, because they're returning for their own reasons. So what could they POSSIBLY complain about other than they're sorry that they didn't understand what they were buying. Therefore anything they state negatively about the item, transaction or seller is completely irrelevant and most likely false.
eBay's feedback policy "is to ensure that feedback is meaningful for both buyers and sellers." Someone please convince me that buyer retaliation is somehow meaningful.
EDIT: BIG THANK YOU to the customer service rep that crafted my 2nd appeal on one of these retaliatory feedbacks. That one JUST came back removed.
luckythewinner
·2 months agolet's face it we as sellers know the buyer is upset and will say all types of things in retaliation. Therefore anything they state negatively about the item, transaction or seller is completely irrelevant and most likely false.
If buyers are willing to lie at the drop of a hat, then why would they file a remorse return and not just lie and file a false INAD?
magicjohnsonsvariety
·2 months agoJust because ebay gives you the option doesn't make it the right choice...
You've been here long enough to know that ebay isnt gonna protect you if you decide to make the wrong choice...when has ebay ever protected sellers?
grann-4629
·2 months agoThe whole problem would go away for everyone if eBay ...
(fill in the blanks)
gurlcat
·2 months ago@spacecoastparts Wow actually 679 out of your 959 (past 12 months) feedbacks were automated, and those only occurred in the past 9 months, since auto's started last Sept. 3rd.
As of right now, your 1 negative causes you to have a 99.9% score. Without those auto's it would be only 99.6%. And in 3 months you'll have even more 'buffer' from negatives.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoGood observation. I'm a smaller-ish seller, and thankfully don't have to decline many returns as most buyers respect the no returns policy when they order. However, the ones I do decline I'd estimate almost 50% will result in bad feedback. Then it's a battle to have them removed - my last one I had to appeal twice. This current one failed auto-removal as well. While the issue isn't bad enough to change my business model away from no returns, it's the principle behind how feedback score is affected, and how I feel the policy should change as a result.
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 months agoSeems like an excellent example of a type of FB which is not removed because doing so might jeopardize Ebay's immunity for responsibility for slanderous or libelous FB.
I am sure their legal department has set rigid guidelines for areas not to enter.
gurlcat
·2 months ago@spacecoastparts I'm not certain but I believe what tobaccocardyahoo is bringing up here is last year's FTC legal mandate, basically cracking down on e-commerce feedback/review white-washing. I've already forgotten the details of it, but it is what spurred the changes eBay made to feedback rules in September and October.
They actually made some negative feedback "stickier" -Sellers with free returns can no longer have negatives auto-removed just because the buyer did a return and the seller refunded them. I think there was another 'sticky' but I can't recall right now. -But to balance this, they implemented the positive auto-feedback system, which in my opinion FARRRR outweighs the stickies, in favor of us sellers.
So although I do think you have a valid point, 1 unfair negative from a buyer who's simply retaliating for a refused return isn't going to harm your score nearly as much as it used to, when only 1/3 or whatever good buyer experiences were typically reflected in your score.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoYou're right, the FTC legal mandate is what triggered feedback policy changes. Things like feedback removals for appeasing a free return agenda really didn't make sense to an open and fair feedback system. eBay still makes the rules for their feedback system and continues to have in place instances where feedback is automatically wiped or eligible for removal. One such instance that I would argue mirrors a declined return is when a buyer loses a case. I'm not sure of the actual intent behind this, but I suspect it's that eBay assumes the buyer has lost in every respect, including the ability to share their experience, which would undoubtedly be negatively biased from losing. Just like when a return is declined.
kibble-net
·2 months agoI am not seeing a problem here. If you don't want to accept returns, that is your choice, but you must accept the consequences.
It's all part of this wonderful thing called "personal responsibility".
christworks
·2 months ago@spacecoastparts Look at how much time, energy and frustration you've spent on this. Think about the amount of money you could have made by spending this time listing items, rather than leaving a long reply to a 4 or 5 word feedback, and then coming here to moan and complain as if most buyers care about a 99.9% feedback.
Life isn't fair. Did you ever learn that lesson as a kid when Billy's mom let him stay outside until after dark and you couldn't?
Get over it. Move on.
bgt_masters_of_tiki_d
·2 months agoIts a good thing everyone doesn't have that mindset. The people in power would continually take, take and take. The old attitude, "Well life isn't fair." Is a cop out. People have every right to voice concerns. Like any good business relationship there needs to be equal ground of give and take. Silencing one side's grievances does nothing but inflate underlying issues. Life itself isn't fair and things we don't have control of you have to roll with the punches. People, businesses, corporations, governments and their rules/policies not being fair is a whole different ball game.
I don't now if ebay can force sellers to no longer have a "No Returns" policy but maybe that depends on the state you're selling from. My state allows a no returns policy as long as its clearly stated. It being ebay's site likely trumps that but just a thought.
@gurlcat I would guess as soon as a remorse return is requested and denied, ebay could have in their system the removal of the ability to leave feedback. Sort of like that do when a seller might accidentally hits the refund button on a return. The ability to accept the return is removed?
christworks
·2 months agoNo, it isn't a cop out. eBay has clear rules and policies which @spacecoastparts agreed to, as did you, as did myself. Nobody forces anyone to sell on eBay. It is not a right. It is a privilege. If you don't like the "working conditions" here, leave. We live in a free society. You can go set up your on selling platform and run it how you'd like.
What is a cop out and speaks to the lack of valid arguement is the OP's statement to me that "I'm way off the mark" and odd comment about never running for political office. I fail to see what that has to do with anything, and it seems that comment would go against your statement to me about silencing others. That comment, by the way, is way off the mark. Nobody, including me, made any attempt to silence the OP. I merely pointed out that sometime you have to pick your battles. A soldier can charge every hill he sees, but that doesn't mean every hill is worth taking.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoMy comment about you being way off the mark is based on your many assumptions/assertions:
I actually enjoy this dialog and don't consider it "moaning and complaining". I feel that coming here to voice a concern brings something to light that others may not be aware of and offer constructive advice, be it positive or negative towards the subject. Isn't this forum supposed to be about discussing issues in a somewhat constructive manner?
There's nothing I'm not "over". Been selling on eBay so long I've learned to roll with the punches but make it known there could be an issue worth looking into AND (most importantly), don't just complain about it but offer a solution.
I care deeply about my business and its reputation. I encourage all sellers to leave detailed responses to bad feedback to put things in the right perspective when bad buyers get vindictive. Some buyers do read feedbacks before deciding to buy and if they can get a glimpse of how a seller rights a situation, it may persuade them to buy. As a buyer I consider a seller's non-response to bad feedback either lazy or the buyer was totally correct in their statement.
My comment about not running for public office probably shouldn't have been made, but since it was, it was meant to highlight the worst politicians are the ones that don't fight for their constituents issues, if even just to raise them for discussion (picking your battles).
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoThanks for your contribution, but you’re way off the mark.
Also please never run for any type of public office.
grann-4629
·2 months agoDid you ever learn that lesson as a kid when Billy's mom let him stay outside until after dark and you couldn't?
All I learned when I was Billy's friend is how to yell loud enough for everyone on the block to hear me "Just 5 more minutes Mom' 😎
bonanza125
·2 months agoYour complaint is very logical however until Ebay makes the change this can still happen.
inhawaii
·2 months agoHow about if buyers wouldn't buy something and change their mind, wouldn't that be great?
muhammada-87
·2 months agogrann-4629
·2 months agoAre there ever situations on eBay where a buyer will buy 5 shirts, for example, from the same seller at the same time, keep the one that fits best, then return the other 4?
bgt_masters_of_tiki_d
·2 months agoI just had a buyer leave me a neutral for an item purchased in April because I wouldn't take the item back that they no longer needed. Gave me their phone number and wanted me to call them which could have gotten me in trouble. Removal was denied. Total **bleep**.
Got a false positive recently too because I didn't cancel a sale 45 minutes after it was shipped. Guy claimed they messaged me before it was shipped but my PO closes at 5. Messaged me after 5:30.
broto_64
·2 months agoWhat ebay really should do, is get rid of the "No Returns" policy altogether.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months ago“No returns” is a seller concession. It’s not necessarily the seller that is declining the return, it’s eBay. I believe legally, eBay can’t deny a buyer their refund as that would technically be a theft by conversion (letting the seller keep the buyers funds). So buyers are allowed to appeal the sellers (really eBay’s) decision. Once that happens, eBay usually refunds the buyer without making them return the item. The seller remains protected.
I'm sure this concession is still in place to attract a segment of sellers that don’t want to have items returned to them, as other platforms are requiring. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was decided to end it though.
kensgiftshop
·2 months agoI joined Ebay while Pay Pal was processing payments and I was surprised to see Ebay offered a No Return policy.
When I started accepting Pay Pal on one of my web sites, way before joining Ebay, it was a requirement to accept 30 day returns.
If I didn't accept returns, I couldn't accept Pay Pal.
grann-4629
·2 months agoWhat ebay really should do, is get rid of the "No Returns" policy altogether.
What eBay should really do is get rid of the feedback system altogether.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoWhile eBay will never make that move as long as their biggest competitors have feedback systems, I actually agree with this.
eBay is already heavily buyer-focused with many protections favoring the buyer over the seller. So a buyer really has no need for a seller's feedback. If they need to reference something to determine if their purchase will be worthwhile, give them an option to browse the seller's metrics once they've chosen a seller to buyer from. Make it relative to that seller's "peers" in category. That should be all they need. No subjective nonsense or inflated feedback percentage.
This is also more fair to the seller, who can't rate a buyer anything but positive and can't decline to sell to a problem buyer (unless they've had interaction).
broto_64
·2 months agoThat's not a terribly bad suggestion either.
adamcartwright
·2 months ago@broto_64
It's no skin off your nose for sellers to choose their own policies.
And as a buyer, you have the ability to ignore listings with no returns.
broto_64
·2 months agoThe real problem is the dissociation between returns and refunds, if it were made clear that a return is NOT required for a refund to transpire this particular policy would not be as misleading.
gurlcat
·2 months ago@broto_64 Exactly. That's why I almost agreed with your assertion that there just shouldn't be a 'no returns' option for sellers, but didn't. The problem isn't the existence of that option itself; it's how eBay offers it with no way to make sure that sellers understand what it really means. Sure it's buried in the policy pages, but it should pop up in red letters when a seller chooses it for a listing.
I would be shocked if any less than 95% of new sellers believe that no returns means the same thing as when a store has a sign reading "All Sales Final" (no returns, NO REFUNDS).
And equally as bad FOR EBAY, lots of buyers think the same thing, so when they run into it, a lot of them are bound to conclude that eBay is too risky a place to spend money.
broto_64
·2 months agoYeah, full disclosure would be another option however (and the reason why I stated to just get rid of it) I've talked about that for years on end and with no progress in sight I'd just as soon they axed the whole thing.
Anyway, yeah either way would work afaiac
gurlcat
·2 months ago@broto_64 It's definitely out of step with most other e-commerce that buyers are used to. I'm sure there are plenty of sellers who'd say they couldn't give a rat's azz what buyers are used to, but it is a bit surprising that eBay gives so much of a rat's azz how those sellers feel. I reckon there could be too much of a sudden mass exodus if they ditched 'no returns' but maybe auto parts is just the first category in a gradual chipping-away strategy.
broto_64
·2 months agoI can't quite wrap my head around a "successful" no returns strategy, specifically one that works around the MBG which, if a buyer decides to claim INAD there's simply no way around that. And I understand there are some sellers here who claim to have implemented a no returns strategy that appears to work well for them, but again I don't see it from my perspective.
albertabrightalberta
·2 months agoOops, never mind.
I mistakenly thought the buyer requested a cancellation. For a remorse return, they can still leave feedback.
inhawaii
·2 months agoI agree.
Ebay shouldn't let buyers who are mad at you leave feedback.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoIt’s kind of a setup. Allow sellers to decline a buyers return request, but also allow buyers to damage the sellers reputation for it.
the other thing is, there’s no scenario where the buyer “wins” a case after having their return declined. So if the buyer is mad at anyone, it should be eBay for allowing sellers to decline.
darn_yankee
·2 months agoI've found out the hard way that a "no refund" policy is kind of like entering a boxing ring and leading with the face. Sure, it's a fight. But more times than not, it ends up hurting.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agousing your analogy then, when buyers give a low blow retaliatory feedback, there needs to be a ref (eBay) that steps in to call a foul.
grann-4629
·2 months ago... there needs to be a ref (eBay) that steps in to call a foul
Nope, that wouldn't work, for me at least. During the 15 or so years I coached hockey, I met only a few refs I got along with. A couple of them are still alive ... one of them was also a popular CFL ref for years. And I still wonder why, to this day, they only called fouls on my team 🏒
meme6253
·2 months agoGreat analogy!
stainlessenginecovers
·2 months agoAlthough there used to be a way to 'fight' a neg for the reason of 'not returning' (and recently successful)
..I'm not sure there is a way anymore (with FB & whoever now NOT having reps anymore) but.....
Over a $10 item just does not seem worth it.
Part would've sold again.
authentic*vintage
·2 months agoHave you considered just....accepting returns?
It might make all of this easier.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoI already knew that was going to come out as a response.
Is easier necessarily right though? eBay continues to give sellers the right to refuse remorse returns, which is not the norm in commerce these days. As long as that right is given, my business model is built to use it, which works very well.
My point of this post is not to tuck tail, it’s to expose what is happening and offer a practical solution where neither seller nor buyer are disenfranchised.
jonathanbrightlight
·2 months agoIs it really a practical solution if eBay doesn’t implement it, though?
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoIf it’s not practical to forbid buyers from leaving feedback on a declined return, tell me why.
gurlcat
·2 months ago@spacecoastparts If it is practical to forbid buyers from leaving feedback on a declined return, tell us how.
As in, how would you enforce it?
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoJust like eBay doesn’t let buyers leave feedback once they’ve lost a case, they won’t be allowed to leave feedback once their return is declined. Also just like if they’ve already left feedback before losing a case, it can be removed if their return is declined. Enforcement is in policy and process.
Another way to look at a declined return is the buyer losing a case. Not realistically because the buyer can still open a case after their return is declined, but symbolically because if they do open a case, they will 100% lose. So for all intents and purposes, the buyer has already lost when their return was declined. In eBay’s view, losers don’t get privileges.
jonathanbrightlight
·2 months agoBecause you’re not making the rules. If you can’t make that change, and eBay isn’t making it, then it’s not a practical step you can take.
spacecoastparts
OP2 months agoThis isn’t about me, although what I’ve experienced is what sparked this discussion. This is about bringing to light a flawed process in my view. It’s about how that process should and could change. The practicality comes from the fact that denying buyer feedback is already being done when a buyer loses a case and a declined return is essentially the same result for the buyer.