EBay is a creepy corporation
We've been selling on eBay sporadically since 2012. Every time we start increasing sales volume, however, the company does something to remind us that it is predatory & unethical, not only offloading risk to its customers, but enhancing that risk when it benefits them. It is by far the creepiest company we deal with. We're fortunate that we've never grown dependant on eBay.
You tell me if I'm exaggerating:
* In 12 years we've had one neutral review out of 900-some sales. (Even that guy, who was sent the wrong $12 pocket knife, posted a follow up to say he tried to correct the feedback to positive, but the system would not let him). The most expensive items we sell are coins, topping out at about $3k. We ship free and have we have a 14-day return policy.
* On January 4 a coin sold for $711. We shipped it Jan 5 and it was delivered January 10. The payout was sent January 8.
* On January 16, the buyer initiated a return, stating the reason as "ordered by mistake". We messaged the buyer, told him he was welcome to return the coin, and asked him if there was any problem with the purchase. No reply.
* Later on January 16, eBay messages us to say it had approved the return, and that the buyer had until February 6 to return the coin, 27 days after it was delivered. No explanation as to why our two-week return policy did not apply.
* In the same message, eBay announced that there would be no payouts "until the return is resolved," meaning that it would hold on to the proceeds from current sales until the guy returns the coin, which it gave him an extra two weeks to do. That means nearly a month with neither the coin nor the sale proceeds .
* After spending a fruitless hour speaking to someone reading policy from a call center in the Philippines, I was told "actually, while I see the message telling you the coin must be posted by February 6, I see a message to the buyer telling him to post it by February 2." In other words, eBay has no problem revising the the truth depending on whom it is talking to. It's "managing behavior".
* The Filipina woman could not explain about the hold, so she connected me to "trust & safety," where the real creepiness began. When I explained the situation to her, she replied "I see that you haven't been selling much on eBay lately." She then proceeded in the most arrogant, condescending way to reference language in the agreement that essentially allows eBay to do what it wants, at its discretion.
In actual commerce, a buyer pays for an item. The money goes into the business cash flow. If there's a return policy, the buyer can get that money when he returns the coin.
For eBay, it's a profit opportunity. It does not matter that it leaves the seller for weeks with neither the merchandise or the purchase funds. The holds aren't there to protect buyers — if that were really the case, it would require identity & credit checks on sellers of high-value items. It wouldn't be lying to sellers about the actual return period, either. It wants those holds as long as possible. In aggregate, every hold that it places swells its daily cash position, making actuaries and investors happy, but quite unethically and deceptively skimming off profit at the direct expense and inconvenience of sellers.
The only recourse is to invoke the arbitration clause. Very creepy. Seller beware.
bytor21
·8 months agoI swear, all these people replying are so ignorant. Its as if every one of them forgot how to read and are stating such simple minded ''Well, No **bleep** they held your funds: of course they should.''
Statements. Notice how not one of them come back with a haughty explanation for why ALL OTHER sales that had nothing go wrong... why those payouts are held up as well. Which btw IS ridiculous. In other words, buyer pays for item, you get cash, buyer initiates return, every other buyer's payment now gets taken from you for as long as possible. How does one guy returning one item equate to taking ALL your sales from other people? And you ARE right, its all about inflating their daily cash position. If any tiny brain on this forum had half a brain cell, they'd might understand that. As a buyer Ive been watching ebay rip people off for decades now... they have many little scams they like to run. For example; exchange rates. My favorite is how they always try to ''Red Flag'' warn/scare you off from ''letting your card issuer/bank take care of the exchange. Lately, its because ''they might charge you foreign transaction fees,'' it used to be the latter and the inference they'd be inaccurate with the exchange and they may hold up the process... ''continue in USD?'' ... so we can skim 25 to 30% off the top of EVERY exchange we handle. Ebay are the ones who are ''inaccurate.'' I do a lot of buying out of country so, I always check to see what ebay is about to charge, just so I can see the difference and it's hilarious how much money they skim off the top... correction, STEAL. When you allow your card issuer to ''handle the transaction,'' its ALWAYS accurate to within 1 to 3 cents. I've seen one time where it went as high as .40 cents... ONCE. So, where's all that ''extra'' money going ebay? Honestly, I cant believe how people don't scream from the roof tops about this. How does no one notice? Ebay does state specifically that its exchange rate handling is always within some ''variance'' of... I forget what % they gave but you get the picture. In other words a loop hole leading to legal theft... because we all know that money isn't going to the seller. I guarantee its as accurate as the day is long when it comes to the payout on the seller side of things. Which btw, is not a hard accomplishment to obtain. So anyone trying to cry out, ''But, its an exchange! Those rates are so volatile and always changing.''... blah blah blah...WAKE UP. If my bank can do it correctly, if every other bank on the planet can do it correctly, even I, sitting in my kitchen, can do it correctly... then why TF cant Ebay correctly exchange different monetary values? It's simple, they dont because they can claim ignorance orrrrr, ''Variance'' and get away with theft.
I mean really, who wouldn't pick up the money off the floor the guy in front of you in line at the store just dropped by accident and put it in your own pocket? Ebay sure does...
And btw, if it was an honest ''variance,'' sometimes the total ebay is looking to charge on these transactions would go into the NEG. But, NO it never does... it's always in the POS. As in more money to skim, Period. Statistically, that should be impossible. Funny enough, if you watch it long enough, you quickly notice how there's quite literally NO variance about it, LoL... its always the same % rate over on every transaction... they couldn't be more blatant, more obvious. And don't even get me started on Ebay's GSP or the de minimis exemption and the import fees I've already proved that they're charging on orders that don't have ''import fees'' to start with. Its a whole other bag of scam for them to take advantage of and for us to get screwed over.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin Do you have any updates? Did you receive the coin back yet?
kensgiftshop
·8 months agoRight, it's to protect Ebay.
If a buyer is needing a refund, they want the funds to come from the sellers account and not theirs.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoIt's true that most of our eBay experience is pre-Covid. Since 2022 we've only sold three or four months a year.
The "leadership team" finally read the actual policy to me, which is published nowhere on the site:
* 14-day return means the buyer has 14 days to initiate a return.
* After the buyer initiates a return, he has 15 BUSINESS DAYS to actually ship the item.
* A message is sent to the seller that the item must be shipped in 15 business days. The buyer, however, is sent a message telling him to ship within 12 business days. Classy.
As for the holds, it is entirely a matter of eBay's discretion.
All of this could be published with absolute clarity. Instead, it employs deception. Not criminal, of course, but sleazy enough to warn us that this is not a corporation we would ever entrust with a significant cash flow. We've aborted our eBay listings for the next two weeks, and after that we will only list a few sub-$100 items.
Fortunately, Heritage gives us a much better deal on higher dollar value items anyway. 10% commission, procedural clarity and they treat us like royalty. We included a few higher-end items on eBay nonetheless, to try & cultivate some platform loyalty, but not any more.
gurlcat
·8 months ago@allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin If it's any consolation, LOTS of us think buyers are given a ridiculously long window of time to get the return package in carrier's hands. There's absolutely no reason it should take that long. But if you want to know the reason eBay has that policy, it's because Amazon does, and eBay never wants to anger buyers who are used to how Amazon does things.
It's really that simple I'm afraid. We don't like it it, but there is nothing we can do about it.
Alternative consolation: just because buyers are allowed to take that long, most of them don't. Do you know where to find the return tracking number, so you can see the progress? -Your $711 coin just barely missed the $750 signature requirement, but you'll still want to know when to expect the package, so you can inspect it and issue the refund voluntarily, rather than wait for eBay to issue it (which would give your account a defect).
Now comes the real question, and if you think eBay policies are creepy already ...... do you know what will happen if you open the package and it contains something other than the coin you sold?
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoIt would be quite easy to demonstrate that kind of fraud. It's a slabbed & graded coin that was sourced at Heritage Auctions in 2021. The buyer hasn't communicated. eBay automatically issued him a label, but he hasn't shipped it yet.
gurlcat
·8 months agoWell they started the return on Friday the 16th and this has been a 3-day postal weekend, so hopefully they will ship tomorrow or soon thereafter. In my experience it's the low-value items that buyers procrastinate shipping back, because the small amount of money doesn't light much fire under their butt. Seven hundred bucks though? I think they'll want to get that as fast as possible, in fact they probably did this return because they had a sudden need for emergency funds.
Nice Seated Liberty, even if PCGS maybe should have graded it a bit higher. -They broke my heart too many times to count.
But when I said "what if they send something else back" - by "something else" I wasn't necessarily talking about some other coin. I mean, that is one possibility ..... but ..... if they wanted to scam you, they'd know better than to try to pass off a fake. Instead what they would do is send you back some other small, lightweight object. A piece of junk of some sort.
Here's what I got as a return for some vintage designer earrings once. Plastic, not even candy, so no treat for me. 😫
Now take a deep breath, because if you've never heard of this kind of thing happening, you will find this a lot more upsetting than any of this "hold" stuff or whatever. -When a scammer returns junk like that, you still have to refund them. It's not a question of whether you could prove it's a different item than what you sent. -How can you prove it was what you really found inside the package when you opened it?
robbie31415
·8 months agoI don't see any issue.
The return was opened on time.
Since you accept returns and it was opened on time it was automatically approved by eBay.
Payout holds are typical when you are a low volume seller or sell infrequently.
I see no violations of policy.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoOnly that the two-week return policy is actually 27 days.
stainlessenginecovers
·8 months ago@allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin wasn't this already explained to you? When you have a 14 day return allowed, buyer has 14 days from 'date of delivery' to START the return. Since Covid, buyer has 3 weeks to actually 'send it back'. Buyer could 'ship' it back at the end of that 21 days and it could take another week to get to you.
This is how ebay operates, and has for 5 years.
yuzuha
·8 months agoWhen a return is opened, eBay immediately places the amount of the return on hold out of your Available/Processing funds to ensure that you'll be able to refund the buyer right away as soon as you receive the item back. If there isn't enough in your Available/Processing funds to cover it, then your payouts will be put on hold until there is. Nothing nefarious about it, it's just common sense.
chapeau-noir
·8 months agoI think there's some confusion regarding 'business cash flow' and how things are done on a managed marketplace, i.e., that place whose real estate and tools we're using to get national/international exposure.
Basically, ebay/adyen handles the money, so it's ebay's 'business cash flow' until the sale is, as it's so weirdly put, 'consummated'. If this were our own website, we'd be handling the money and could dictate our own rules.
But it's not, so we get ebay's rules.
jonathanbrightlight
·8 months agoGotta say, calling standard procedures “creepy†is a new one for me. I suggest if you continue to sell here or anywhere that isn’t your own retail store or website that you familiarize yourself with the policies. Your hour on the phone with eBay was fruitless because you had an incorrect expectation, not because they would not or could not help.
chapeau-noir
·8 months agoEbay doesn't care about your individual 'selling pattern', they care about the last time you sold. The small amount you sell every year sets a low bar.
As for 'costing the company some money on the way out' - if you mean ebay, we're all just vendors on a managed marketplace and you're one of millions. They don't care - they're a huge multinational.
ETA: When I go back to selling here in the spring, I'll go through the same rigamarole.
kibble-net
·8 months agoIf y'all don't trust ebay, and think their payment holds are tyrannical, may I recommend voting with your feet instead of continuing to feed them money.
That is all.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoPrecisely. eBay tops out at maybe 10% of our sales in a good year, and we already bring the majority of high-value items to Heritage Auctions, with a 10% commission and a lot more transparency & respect.
I wouldn't mind costing the company some money on our way out, either.
albertabrightalberta
·8 months agoNo one forces you to stay!
bashort
·8 months agoThis is all standard stuff, you have a 14 day return policy, buyer asked to return 6 days after they receive the item well within your 2 week return policy, ebay gives them basically 2 weeks to get it back to you. and as you are a self proclaimed "sporadic" seller they put a hold on the funds until either the return timeframe runs out or the item is refunded.
I would be much more worried about what the buyer actually returns that ebay putting a temporary hold on my funds.
hartungcards
·8 months agoIf you don't understand that selling online can be "risky," then you shouldn't be selling online. There are lots of "risks" that come with the territory.
bonanza125
·8 months agoEbay is not a creepy corporation. They have a return policy in place which you agreed to by clicking submit listing. The buyer exercised the option to return the item to you. If you don't sell much you are considered inactive seller which would place your funds on hold. Lets say you received your payout to your bank account the buyer can still get funds from you regardless cause they can return the item.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoWe have sold between $6,000 and $15,000 a year for many years.
bonanza125
·8 months ago"We have sold between $6,000 and $15,000 a year for many years."
Just so you know transaction totals and amount doesn't matter when it comes to inactivity. If you are inactive for a period of say 1 month or more your funds can be put on hold. You kind of implied that in your opening.
inhawaii
·8 months agoThen maybe you should be thanking ebay instead of calling them creepy.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoWhen we're paying 15% commissions plus store-front fees, we expect sincerely, clarity and transparency. eBay's failures in this regard are objectively creepy. Fortunately, eBay is a very a small part of our business, and about to get even smaller.
reallynicestamps
·8 months agoNo explanation as to why our two-week return policy did not apply.
EBay has a 30 day return policy. Their policy overturns yours.
After spending a fruitless hour speaking to someone reading policy from a call center
The call centre employees work for a sub-contractor in Utah. They are not eBay employees.
Use social media to reach customer reps who are hired trained and paid by eBay.
The phone reps have a terrible reputation for getting you off the phone as soon as possible even if that means giving you the advice you want to hear instead of the advice you need to have.
Here are your options for contacting Ebay Customer Service.
Please be aware that for social media CS, you send them a Private Message and briefly explain what your problem or issue is. Feel free to leave your Name, address, phone number and/or your email address in this message. It is private and secure and it may help to speed up the response for you.

https://www.facebook.com/ebay -Message button in upper right on landing page.
#204760888466
https://www.instagram.com/ebayforsellers/

https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/How-do-I-contact-Customer-Support/m-p/32016431#M1783851 -> Automated Assistant, type AGENT -> enter. You will then get more options.
Your options will be on the left. If you use the link below you can only get to the Automated Assistant or Chat box type AGENT in the box and hit enter. You will then get more options. Not all options are available 24/7. It will depend on staffing available. So sometimes you can request a call back and sometimes you can't. Sometimes you have the Chat option available and other times it won't me. If it is important to you to use one of those options, just try back later.

The social media Chat accounts are covered by trained eBay employees with some authority.
And you get a transcript so you can compare what you heard with what you were told.
albertabrightalberta
·8 months ago@reallynicestamps
This is incorrect.
The buyer opened a remorse return and as such, the seller's return policy applies.
And as @mtgraves7984 explained, the seller's 14 day policy means that the return request has to be opened within 14 days of delivery.
And since the buyer did abide by the seller's policy, the return is valid.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoI've been through everything eBay published on the 14-day return policy. Even in its most liberal interpretation, it does not say the buyer can wait 14 days to decide to return it, then wait another 13 days before putting it in the mail.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months ago"EBay has a 30 day return policy. Their policy overturns yours."
Funny, eBay posts "14-day return policy" on every one of our listings, and claims the 30-days policy is for items that are not as described. This is a slabbed & graded PCGS coin sourced at Heritage Auctions.
reallynicestamps
·8 months agoeBay posts "14-day return policy" on every one of our listings, and claims the 30-days policy is for items that are not as described.
I was corrected on my misconception earlier.
Generally however any transaction can be challenged. EBay has a 30 day limit on most Disputes, that is 30 days after the item is received eBay will not allow a Dispute.
But.
The buyer still has recourse to their credit card for a chargeback. Most cards allow 120days (from purchase, not arrival) and some allow 180 days.
EBay no longer supports American Express which allows a full year for disputes.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoThe buyer already confirmed that he "ordered by mistake". I suppose he could make up some story now, but the item he bought has auction provenance. He'd have a hard time claiming he received anything else.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months ago"EBay has a 30 day return policy. Their policy overturns yours."
Funny, that:
fern*wood
·8 months agoYour 14 day return policy states "accepted", it does not state 14 days to receive it back. All a buyer has to do is initiate the return within 14 days of delivery to meet the policy. Ebay has a 30 day return policy for not as described returns, so that doesn't apply to yours since it was for remorse.
I don't get using the term creepy for your situation. No seller likes returns or holds, but to sell here I know both can and do happen.
mtgraves7984
·8 months ago* Later on January 16, eBay messages us to say it had approved the return, and that the buyer had until February 6 to return the coin, 27 days after it was delivered. No explanation as to why our two-week return policy did not apply.
@allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
^^^ I'll take a shot at this. Your two week Return policy means that you allow 14 days from the buyer's delivery date (1/10). Admittedly, the feeling that buyers get 'Forever + 1 Day' to return is disheartening... but it's really only 22 days, per policy.
tobaccocardyahoo
·8 months agoI have been selling here for a long time.
Ebay applies policies which are usually applied consistently and are usually obvious in their intent.
Payment holds are usually pretty obvious. A change in pattern of sales, a much larger than usual single sale or other reason to protect trust and safety.
My own experience is that an increase in sales within your normal range is less likely to trigger a hold than a much larger sale than usual will. It is common for internet marketplaces to refuse to provide other than vague answers to why you are being subjected to a hold. A CSR will not know, and Trust and Safety will not sell.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoThe "pattern change" notion is one of those vague areas companies use to justify predatory behavior. If the issue was buyer security, the company should be vetting us, not stealing from us.
Our pattern has been identical for more than a decade — we sell in six or seven-week period three or four times a year, every year.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months ago"It is common for internet marketplaces to refuse to provide other than vague answers to why you are being subjected to a hold."
I upvoted your reply, even though I find it absurd that people would accept this in a free market economy. If a mega corporation can punish its customers arbitrarily, based on the idea of some sort of mandatory trust that the company has its reasons, you're basically talking about corporate rule, not a free & lawful marketplace where all parties have equal rights & responsibilities under the law. Sorry, but that's very creepy.
gone.c-33
·8 months agoIn a free market economy, you’re free to stop selling your wares on a platform if it stops fitting your needs.
Also, this isn’t a punishment, it’s a policy.
broto_64
·8 months agoAnd you have the bad actors to thank for these policies.
Yes it can come off as creepy but see it from ebay's side of things it translates to "we've been ripped off before, and in every which way you can think of and then some - so this is where we are."
That is literally the only reason policies exist, is the bad actors.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoI don't believe this, sorry. If it were a question of bad-seller risk, the company would would vet such sellers. Credit reports, sales volume, business history. If we wanted to rip off the buyer on ebay by failing to return funds after a return, we would simply disappear, not maintain listings on the forum.
Instead it chooses a method where "security" is just an empty justification for boosting its corporate cash position a few percent every month at the direct expense of active sellers in good standing.
caldreamer
·8 months agoOf course, EBAY will not "release your money" until after you refund the customer. If customer never returns the item, your case will automatically close and EBAY will pay you the money.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoThey already paid us the money from the transaction. They put a hold on payouts from current transactions.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoNot "of course." They released the money four days after the sale. The problem is the hold they put on without warning from current purchases, and the claim that the 14-day return policy really means 27 days, except "don't worry, the buyer has been told he only has 23 days."
We have had three or four returns over the years, including higher-value items than this, and were never subjected to such a hold.
ulfesharpe
·8 months agoWhat if you need that money to refund the customer?
gurlcat
·8 months agoThat is why eBay is holding it. So it will be there TO refund the customer.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoWe've been in business for 40 years, thank you. If the point is to protect buyers, then eBay would vet sellers of items above a certain value. Credit check, business profile, etc. They could make the sellers pay a fee for it, even.
At the very least, they would publish the actual return policy rather than deliberately mislead sellers.
stainlessenginecovers
·8 months agoNot sure where you get your internet skills from, but internet sales allowing returns has ALWAYS been:
"X amount of days to START (initiate) a return"
Then they give a buyer 'time' to actually 'ship it out';
Then time for actual 'shipping'.
No site needs to 'spell that out' for you.
About as obvious as a cheeseburger actually having cheese.
gurlcat
·8 months agoLOL you don't even realize how lucky you were with this, do you? -Considering it being a historically intermittent/high dollar sale for your eBay account, you are lucky eBay let you HAVE the funds in the first place. They are now only holding the funds of smaller subsequent sales, to at least ensure that much will be available for refunding when the return is delivered to you. -They have no way of knowing whether you'll have the rest available in your bank or whatever; you could have already spent the money and now have $3 in your checking account.
If they REALLY didn't trust you, you wouldn't have been able to touch that $711 for 30 days after delivery to the buyer, to see if they start an INAD return. Do a search for 'funds on hold' ^ -see how many sellers posted about facing THAT.
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months agoLike all successful businesses, we manage our cash flow to account for returns, as both the law and good business require.
Despite carefully reading everything the company publishes about returns, the actual policy is to be found nowhere. See my post about that policy as recited by the "leadership team" person who called me. Slapping a hold on us didn't really harm us, assuming there are no more surprises, but this affair exposed a duplicity & corporate arrogance we're not inclined to tolerate.
inhawaii
·8 months agoTranslation:
You don't like ebay's policies.
Other than you not liking their policies, what did ebay do wrong?
allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
OP8 months ago* Lied to us about the 14 day policy, which apparently gives remorse buyers up to 30 days to return the item. There is no policy text anywhere demonstrating this, though there is plenty of text that basically says "we can do whatever we like for whatever reason we choose".
* Told us the buyer had until February 6 to send the item. Told the buyer that he had until February 2, meaning that eBay communicates dishonestly in hopes of managing behavior.
* Slapped a payout hold on a 14-year-old account with a brick & mortar operation, a sterling reputation and average eBay sales of several thousand dollars a year. The figure is much higher on Heritage Auctions, which treats us lawfully and respectfully.
Sorry, but eBay is creepy.
mtgraves7984
·8 months ago"... about the 14 day policy, which apparently gives remorse buyers up to 30 days to return the item."
@allegheny_dulcimer_and_coin
Actually, the buyer has 14 days to request a Return. When approved, the buyer has 22 days to return the item.