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eBay allowed a deceptive buyer to get away with lying
I recently put up for sale an old 18K watch. The watch had been recently serviced and brought up to original Longines specs. I have the receipt of the service which I provided to the buyer.
Upon receipt of the watch, buyer asked for a refund since he had broken the watch. Such watch was in perfect condition for a watch that old, 55 years. Buyer manhandled it and broke it.
eBay forced me to accept the return and fully refund the buyer. In first instance they sided with the buyer in which I had shipped a defective product.
I contacted watch repaired and I was provided with an email explaining what was done to the watch and that it had been restored to factory specs. I provided all these to eBay along with the phone number so they could call to verify.
eBay reaffirmed their original decision.
So now I am stuck with a broken watch that I spent $600 to service plus $256 in selling fees from eBay for a watch that did not sell.
My whole eBay adventure has cost me close to $1,000 and now I have a broken watch.
Thank you very much eBay.
I am going to be dropping you soon. Good riddance.
kh-light
·7 months agoHi everyone,
Due to the age of this thread, it has been closed to further replies. Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to continue to discuss this topic.
Thank you for understanding.
robbie31415
·1 year agoIf you followed procedures and were eligible you could have deducted upto 50% from the refund for damage caused by the buyer.
grecio
OP1 year agoUnfortunately although I did follow procedures, I am a regular seller.
dbfolks166mt
·1 year agoI don't see the watch in your sold items so I can't really look at the listing. I am assuming this is your posting ID and there is nothing wrong with that. I would have been better to come to this forum when you initially got the request from the buyer for a return. You would probably have gotten some good advice from the senior sellers on this venue on how to handle the issue.
Others have already provided some good advice about the only thing I would add is consider yourself fortunate that you got the watch back at all. On an 18K watch I am surprised it did not automatically go through the eBay authentication process, or did it?
Always remember the #1 rule as a seller on eBay. Never list anything you are not prepared to take the financial loss on.
grecio
OP1 year ago"Always remember the #1 rule as a seller on eBay. Never list anything you are not prepared to take the financial loss on."
Best advice received.
a_c_green
·1 year agoIf I remember right, when you refund the buyer, eBay will roll back the Final Value Fees as part of the refund, so you would only be out the costs of the initial listing.
Do you have the watch back yet? Have you determined what the buyer did to the watch? (e.g. Pull the stem out?) If you need to have it repaired, that should not necessarily cost as much as what you spent on a full factory restoration. Once it's been sorted out, consider selling the watch on consignment through a venue that specializes in high-end models.
grecio
OP1 year agoCharge xxxxx
From xx Bank ending in xxx6
For accrued selling costs
Completed
fern*wood
·1 year agoIf you have a not as described return and do not provide the return shipping label and refund when the item is returned, you will lose your final value fees. Shipping both ways is required on this type of return. That's why I mentioned to always handle the refund yourself and do not allow ebay to be asked to step in on your behalf. If they do, you lose your fees and are penalized. The penalty won't matter, though, since you are leaving ebay, but for other sellers this needs to be known.
grecio
OP1 year agoI did everything by the book. When seller asked for return because "watch broke when he was handling it, I asked eBay what to do and I was told to go ahead, provide label and to issue refund once I got watch back. Once I had the item back and refund was issued, they told me to start a claim and, not to worry, eBay seller protection would take care of it. Little did I know. I got charged for shipping both ways, btw return I was forced to use Fedex instead of USPS (much cheaper), AND selling fees. So not sure what your point is.
My suggestion is that, if you are a once in a blue moon seller like me, 8 items since 1999, DO NOT TRUST eBAY.
a_c_green
·1 year agoI'm afraid you lost me a bit at the end there. You provided a label to the buyer (I don't quite understand why you were forced to buy FedEx if you originally shipped it via USPS), you got the watch back and issued the refund. You should have seen the Final Value Fees refunded by eBay at the time you refunded the buyer.
At that point, what was the claim that eBay told you to start? A claim for what, and with whom?
Also, what is wrong with the watch now? Did the buyer wind it tight, or yank out the stem?
buyselljack2016
·1 year ago@a_c_green
FedEx label.
eBay was playing with that a bit for returns rather than the USPS "return service" labels.
An occasional seller would not be aware that eBay would do that.
Had not heard much of that FedEx return label business recently, but apparently it is still happening.
fern*wood
·1 year agoMaybe I misunderstood what you meant by selling fees. Without seeing what exactly you were charged, it's difficult to help. If your fees were refunded then what was the explanation given for selling fees? Did you have a reserve on your listing? What did the watch sell for? Sellers are responsible for paying shipping on not as described returns.
jameshen1
·1 year agoMy suggestion is that, if you are a once in a blue moon seller like me, 8 items since 1999, DO NOT TRUST eBAY.
My suggestion is that if you are a casual seller, you should read as much as possible before listing including the eBay money back guarantee. Then you will have a clue what you are getting into and how to properly handle issues should they arise.
grecio
OP1 year agoRest assured I learned my lesson. Never again.
kensgiftshop
·1 year agoThat's where you messed up.
Never get Ebay involved until the item has been returned and buyer refunded.
luzmich1912
·7 months agoI just found out the hard way myself that Ebay will protect deceptive buyers and that the seller's protections they go on about are **bleep**. I'm so sorry you went through that. The $119.29 I am out, seems like small potatoes to your loss, but still ticks me off. We had four brand new white Alpaca coats that were brought from South America, because we thought we were moving to a colder climate, but since we moved to the deep south, there was no need for them. The coats were never worn except for the pictures to display them for sale on Ebay. The first three sold and the buyers were very happy. On the fourth coat we had a buyer who made an offer a couple of months before that was a fraction of what the coat was worth and we were already selling them at more than reasonable prices. We declined the offer. This same buyer made a more reasonable offer later on and we countered with a little higher offer than what she did and she accepted and purchased. She immediately sent a message requesting we please get the coat to her as quickly as possible as she had a trip she wanted the coat for. Out of respect for her wishes I did hurry and got the coat into the mail the next day. Shipping a long heavy coat like this is not cheap and cost $77.50. I uploaded the tracking number same day it was sent (delivery expected in four days) and two days later, the messages started, one after another. I work from home so I am not monitoring my emails all day long, I check them in the morning and in the evening. On the evening of the second day after shipment, I saw five messages, all claiming that she saw no progress, what was happening, why didn't I answer, did I even send it, etc. I checked the tracking number and saw that the shipment was moving along nicely, took a screenshot and messaged it to her advising all was well. The third day, only had two messages from her saying she was again seeing no progress. I checked it again on usps.com and sent her another screenshot showing delivery was expected the following day and got a "Whew, thank goodness!". Needless to say, I began getting a bad feeling about the buyer. I was relieved to see the coat delivered the next day as expected, but two days later the messages began again. First, she began claiming that the coat smelled of moth balls, to which I responded that I didn't use moth balls in my walk in closet where the coats were stored so that would be impossible. Then she claimed there was a sticky substance all over the coat to which I got alarmed and asked if she had worn the coat out, because I packaged the coat myself and it was in immaculate condition and that the coats were stored with a light plastic, with small holes, to allow the fur to breathe, over them, to protect them. She then went back to odor, claiming there was a foul odor coming from the coat and that the plastic was to blame, smh . This went back and forth, with her reasons changing repeatedly from the odor to the coat was falling apart and her telling me she wanted to return the coat, to which I told her that it was our policy to not accept returns and she knew that. After she began with the insults, I stopped responding and reported her. Late the next day, I get another message from her showing a return label so I contacted an agent the next morning, who assured me about seller's protections and that the buyer would not win this one after he reviewed all the messages. He also said he was reporting her. I called again a couple of days later to see what was going on and another agent advised to accept the return and offer a partial refund deducting the shipping fees, so I did that. All I got three agents later, was more messages from the jerk buyer sending me pictures of a hand flipping me off and more insults, none of which I answered. Only to get charged an additional $41.79 to pay for her to ground ship the coat back to me, because she claimed it was not as described. Once we received the coat, it was very obvious she had never even opened the box, just stuck the return label on top and sent it back. I took pictures of the box, the unpacking process and detailed pictures of the coat for the appeal. The coat was in the same condition as I mailed it and exactly as described. Despite all that, Ebay refunded her the money, which I am sure she knew would happen all along. I am the one who got suckered and out $119.29, because someone decided to be a jerk and because Ebay's seller's protections are a scam to sucker seller's in. Lesson learned and closing the account tonight.
kensgiftshop
·1 year agoWhen you get Ebay involved in a return, they keep their fee's.
jerseyboymusic
·1 year ago@grecio
Maybe this is your posting ID? I wish I could see the listing, but I don't see anything active or sold on this account...
As several have said, the Ebay MBG is lopsided in favor of buyers. Sellers used to be able to at least charge a restock fee, but that was short lived.
Sorry you are going through this. There are things I have that I would love to sell on Ebay, but I never will, for fear of buyer damage, retaliation or chargebacks from their credit card company. For me, it's all small stuff on here.
luckythewinner
·1 year agoGenerally speaking, any eBay buyer can steal, damage or return any item from any seller by filing a fraudulent dispute. This has been true since 2008 when eBay introduced the Money Back Guarantee for buyers.
The harsh reality is that eBay has no idea what you sent, what the buyer received, or what the buyer returned. So they decide in favor of the buyer, because it is in eBay's interest to do so.
eBay refuses to acknowledge watch was broken by buyer.
eBay is not in any position to evaluate the truthfulness of you or the buyer.
Let's pretend that in an alternate universe, you had dropped the watch and broken it while you were packing it - and decided to ship it to the buyer anyway. From eBay's perspective that imaginary scenario would look identical to the scenario you describe.
grecio
OP1 year agoSo basically you and eBay are calling me a thief and deceitfull seller. You sir/ma'am either have no principles or think everybody is like that. rest assured I am not.
luckythewinner
·1 year agoI absolutely did not call you a thief, and I did not call you deceitful. And neither did eBay. 🙄
What I said was that for ANY disputed transaction, eBay has no way of knowing for sure who is telling the truth. So they generally side with the buyer because it is in their financial interest to do so (due to the Money Back Guarantee).
That is not "calling you a thief and deceitful seller", and it is not a lack of principles on my part. That is simply me explaining what happens, and why.
grecio
OP1 year agoBasically comes down to:
- I shipped a defective product
- The buyer broke it
- If I shipped a defective product I am a deceitful seller
- If buyer broke it and returned he is a deceitful buyer.
Guess which one I side with.
house*of*paws
·1 year agoHi @grecio
But why are only two possibilities being considered?
Another obvious (to me) possibility is that the watch was damaged because of rough handling in transit … unless it was picked up, or delivered, in person.
It seems to me that the main reason sellers can’t prove that ‘the buyer broke it’ is that there’s usually a ‘middleman’ in the picture … the shipping company.
I’m truly sorry this happened, but I don’t understand your certainty about the buyer being deceitful or that they manhandled the watch … unless there’s information that you haven’t told us yet.
grecio
OP1 year ago"I’m truly sorry this happened, but I don’t understand your certainty about the buyer being deceitful or that they manhandled the watch … unless there’s information that you haven’t told us yet."
Statement from the watchmaker:
" The repairs that were done on your Longines watch serial #50681138 Longines 507 in July of 2022, brought the timepieces back up to factory standards. The stem and crown as well as the rest of the parts that were replaced are genuine Longines parts. The watch passed all phases of quality control, and the watch was in perfect condition when it was shipped ."
Statement from the buyer:
"Crown came off as I was attempting to adjust the date, day and time. I collect and know a bit about Longines watches. This winding stem isn’t the correct 2 piece stem. This watch has a quick date function that doesn’t work because it has an incorrect stem. The watch doesn’t work properly because the stem is not the stem for this watch. Repair wasn’t done properly for seller."
A 1969 Longines did not have that feature. Buyer forced it. Buyer is contradicting watchmaker.
slati_2013
·1 year agoOccasionally I sell vintage, rare items in very bad shape. I never restore them. I recently sold a rare French made saxophone owned by a US Army band. It was beat up, and in very bad shape, but the kind of saxophone a sax player or collector would want. I put it up for sale exactly as it was making it clear in the listing that the sax needed to be resorted before it can be used. It sold literally minutes after I put it up.
By leaving it in exactly the condition it is in, you eliminate 99% of possible buyers and are left with true collectors and people who know exactly what they are buying and how they will restore the item.
lb23cavaliersmvp
·1 year agoYou say that he wanted a refund upon receipt. What are you claiming he did after opening the package and what was broken? If the repair was incomplete or faulty don't you have recourse with the jeweler?
grecio
OP1 year agoService was done correctly. Watch was not broken before being sent to serivce. It is an old watch and I wanted it to be perfect before putting it up for sale. Buyer broke watch. He opened box, manhandled watch. He tried to access a feature watch does not have and broke watch in doing so.
golfingaddict
·1 year agoSadly, you fell into a trap that many new sellers fall into.
You thought you could convince eBay that the buyer ruined the watch and you should win the return case.
You are not alone in this trap.
eBay money back guarantee works ONE way.
Buyer says there is a problem, and you must accept the return, pay for the shipping and refund on return of the watch.
You can't argue, you can't state your case, you can't win.
The minute you decided to fight the case you lost. eBay does not care about the truth and does not care about the damage the buyer did to the watch. All they care about is that they have a policy in place that says that the seller must accept the return and refund the buyer in full (and pay for the return label to boot)
Did the buyer break the watch? Probably.
Did you get taken to the cleaners over this transaction? Yes, pretty much.
You may try to appeal to eBay to refund you the fees you had to pay but I wouldn't bet on it. Basically, eBay punishes sellers if they try to "fight" a return case by not returning the seller fees.
Here is a link to the eBay money back guarantee and how it works.
eBay Money Back Guarantee policy
It's very buyer bias and the seller does not have many options. If you try to fight it, well, you saw what happens.
If you choose to sell again, I recommend that you don't try to fight these cases.
I will stress, it is not important that the buyer lies, or they intentionally damaged the item. It doesn't matter if you can prove the item was perfect. It doesn't even matter if the buyer says it is broken, and you get back the item exactly as described and working perfectly.
I am sorry this happened to you.
grecio
OP1 year agoThank you very much. That is exactly what it it is happening to me. It does not matter I put eBay in contact to the watchmaker. This is the email that I got from them:
"The repairs that were done on your Longines watch serial #50681138 Longines 507 in July of 2022, brought the timepieces back up to factory standards. The stem and crown as well as the rest of the parts that were replaced are genuine Longines parts. The watch passed all phases of quality control, and the watch was in perfect condition when it was shipped."
I gave eBay the phone number of the watchmaker as well.
As you clearly state: nothing...
BTW I am not a "seller" per se. Just a guy that had something to sell and used eBay as a means. Never again.
fern*wood
·1 year agoI sympathize on the large hit for this mess of a sale. I've had my fair share of returns, but seldom sell anything expensive. I know when I am notified of a return that I have to do what ever to limit the pain. First thing I tell myself is don't think for a second that ebay will litigate any dispute, they just aren't in that business. I then make sure I handle the refund without ebay getting involved in order to get my item back and not lose more money in ebay fees.
I've heard of some sellers having luck with appeals, but I've never experienced that.
femmefan1946
·1 year agoThe repairs were done two years ago?
There is no chance that the repaired watch deteriorated in that period?
Did the buyer say "I broke the watch" or more likely did they say "The watch does not work/keep time/ stops after X hours."?
BTW I am not a "seller" per se. Just a guy that had something to sell and used eBay as a means. Never again.
You had The Thing.
You did not want The Thing.
You sold The Thing.
You have The Thing back and you can sell it again, either As Is, or serviced again.
You did not make the money you thought you would.
You are a seller.
grecio
OP1 year agoYes, it horribly deteriorated sitting inside the box in the safe. Come on!
grecio
OP1 year agom closing my eBay account. Good riddance.
pickapaper
·1 year ago$600 to repair a vintage Longines watch?
I am not knowledgable about repairing watches but that repair dollar amount stunned me (unless it involved repairing the gold itself rather than the internal parts).
toysaver
·1 year ago.... or was severely 'nonfunctioning' and was rebuilt.
grecio
OP1 year agoWatch was serviced andbrought back to original condition. It was working before being sent to service. In any case, watch was working perfectly before being shipped to buyer and he broke it.
grecio
OP1 year agoExpensive watches are expensive to service. Specially in an old vintage watch.
simba6
·1 year agoThat is not out of the question depending on the model. Most Rolex run over 1000.00
grecio
OP1 year agoIndeed. I had a Ferrari once and the oil change was $600. A minor service was $6,000.
pickapaper
·1 year ago@simba6
I'm very familiar with the prices to repair or maintain Rolex timepieces. I just wasn't familiar with the cost of repairing a Longines.
toysaver
·1 year ago"I contacted watch repaired and I was provided with an email explaining what was done to the watch and that it had been restored to factory specs...... My whole eBay adventure has cost me close to $1,000 and now I have a broken watch."
It sounds like there was a broken watch and it was repaired and or restored to sell. I'm sorry, don't see eBay has any fault in the situation.
grecio
OP1 year agoWatch was serviced. Expensive watches are expensive to service. Watch was shipped to buyer in perfect condition. Buyer broke watch. eBay refuses to acknowledge watch was broken by buyer.
bill.purvis2012
·1 year agoHere's the thing. I sympathize with you. But, Ebay has NO way of knowing if the watch was in 'perfect' condition as you state or in 'broken' condition as the buyer states. No way of knowing. He said, she said. They side with the buyer, you get your product back, buyer gets their money back. It's really simple.