Desperate - eBay Trying to Steal From Me!! | Selling

Man, this is one of a handful of recent threads that I am so glad I replied to, if only to receive notifications and glean the VERY ENLIGHTENING information from the final outcome. In this case it's not only enlightening but fairly shocking to me. If I'd had $100 for betting, I would have put $25 on Ebay For Business giving the help you needed, and the other $75 on you being S.O.L., especially with you blocking the funds extraction.

I remember I did see the BBB suggestion but wouldn't have placed one dollar on it. Even as someone turning 50 this year, "Contact the Better Business Bureau!" is right up there with "Don't trust anyone but the dealership with your car repairs!" and "Be loyal to your employer and they'll be loyal to you" as classic examples of Outdated Advice From Old People, LOL. In fact I was only vaguely aware of the BBB still existing; the only times I hear of them is when a company cites themselves as accredited by the BBB -I forgot they were an entity that might actually pursue customer grievances, haven't even heard anyone suggest that for decades! And I certainly would have thought that Ebay would be too hairy of a business to tackle. But wow, this is like a whole new (old) world of hope.

kelly71159

·2 years ago

648 View listings

This is terrible and ebay should help. A 10 billion dollar company that used to take great pride in the protection of both its buyer and sellers. They should intensify the things they do for prevention. The state of the world and the increasing prevalence of scammers and their sneaky rat like methods that prey on good people that EBAY is definitely not immune to. They should work harder and spend some of the money they make off us to stop it. Or at least more of it. I have seen it lately in one area. It must be everywhere here now. I am even saddened to say that.

mam98031

·2 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

@kelly71159 wrote:
This is terrible and ebay should help. A 10 billion dollar company that used to take great pride in the protection of both its buyer and sellers. They should intensify the things they do for prevention. The state of the world and the increasing prevalence of scammers and their sneaky rat like methods that prey on good people that EBAY is definitely not immune to. They should work harder and spend some of the money they make off us to stop it. Or at least more of it. I have seen it lately in one area. It must be everywhere here now. I am even saddened to say that.

@kelly71159

Have you read the thread? The OP did get this resolved. They posted just a few posts above your post to tell us what happened.

bonjourami

·2 years ago

"This is terrible and ebay should help. A 10 billion dollar company that used to take great pride in the protection of both its buyer and sellers."

When was that exactly? Ebay has always been buyer centric.

jokass

OP2 years ago

I had zero hope that filing a BBB complaint would do anything, lol. My only hope was that laying it out clearly with photographic evidence in a public forum would raise awareness and deter someone else from selling valuable items on eBay.

I'm turning 49 this year and have the BBB filed next to "Fight Back With David Horowitz" in the mental material I archived in 1987.

gurlcat

·2 years ago

@jokass wrote:
I had zero hope that filing a BBB complaint would do anything, lol. My only hope was that laying it out clearly with photographic evidence in a public forum would raise awareness and deter someone else from selling valuable items on eBay.

I'm turning 49 this year and have the BBB filed next to "Fight Back With David Horowitz" in the mental material I archived in 1987.

LOL that somehow slipped my 80's radar, guess my parents didn't watch it. But I see there are youtube videos!

laststopgeneralstore

·2 years ago

6160 View listings

This happened to me a few years ago with a $400 kitchenaid mixer. I had to get a police report from my local police station as well as report it and while I didn't get "all" of my money back, I did get back everything aside from the return shipping label that I got charged and the fee's. Better than a sharp stick in the eye.

jokass

OP2 years ago

EXCITING UPDATE on this blast from the recent past:

Thanks to those who recommended filing a complaint on BBB -- that did the trick! A few days after I gave in and paid eBay the $1500 (didn't want my credit wrecked), I received a lengthy response to my BBB complaint and was refunded the $1500!

Unfortunately, even that eBay representative via BBB would not admit any negligence on eBay's part and suggested I review the Money Back Guarantee (which I completely understand and has NOTHING to do with a buyer returning a different item). He said they were only doing this as a "one-time courtesy" since I'm a 23-year member with no prior issues.

I thanked him for doing the right thing but also reminded him that I had been resisting this scam from the drop and had complete and indisputable evidence that the buyer was committing fraud; it was by no means a he said/she said case. They made zero effort to look at or respond to any evidence I provided throughout my appeals process. They didn't even make reference to the evidence or agree that the buyer was scamming in their BBB response.

@toomuchstuffagain35 @ittybitnot @gurlcat @sextons-sweet-deals @cardxcraft @duffy4444 @lawnmowerpartsstore2 @safan80 @rugerskick

bonjourami

·2 years ago

Thats really great news!

cardxcraft

·2 years ago

Usually the method that mudshark outlined does the trick. As for the BBB, I had read about entering a complaint on some old posts, which is why I mentioned it. Live and learn. Either way, I'm glad it worked out for you.

mam98031

·2 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

The BBB is a very underused tool and they can be very effective.

Years ago I had a car mechanic trying to take advantage of me, a mere woman that couldn't possibly understand what my car needed. So he tried to charge me a lot more than was initially estimated. He would not give me my car unless I paid the entire bill. I contacted the BBB and I got my car for the price originally agreed upon. And the boss at the mechanics shop was really mad at be for going to the BBB.

gurlcat

·2 years ago

@jokass wrote:

Unfortunately, even that eBay representative via BBB would not admit any negligence on eBay's part and suggested I review the Money Back Guarantee (which I completely understand and has NOTHING to do with a buyer returning a different item). He said they were only doing this as a "one-time courtesy" since I'm a 23-year member with no prior issues.

I thanked him for doing the right thing but also reminded him that I had been resisting this scam from the drop and had complete and indisputable evidence that the buyer was committing fraud; it was by no means a he said/she said case. They made zero effort to look at or respond to any evidence I provided throughout my appeals process. They didn't even make reference to the evidence or agree that the buyer was scamming in their BBB response.

@toomuchstuffagain35 @ittybitnot @gurlcat @sextons-sweet-deals @cardxcraft @duffy4444 @lawnmowerpartsstore2 @safan80 @rugerskick

If you're out celebrating I wouldn't blame you, but if you do happen to come back and check replies, may I recommend you go to the one that first suggested the BBB contact, and click 'Best Answer' at the bottom of that post? -That member may or may not care about receiving forum 'badges' or whatever, but the benefit for you and everyone following this thread is that someone reading it for the first time will see that your problem is already solved, and won't feel a need to make suggestions for you without reading all the replies (which will also give us all notifications of new replies).

Now about that "as a courtesy" thing. -This is verbiage that a lot of businesses use when they don't want to admit they messed up, and may even reiterate that it was YOU who messed up (like suggesting you review the MBG), which is very irksome, even though they are eliminating the monetary penalty. I don't know if they just want to protect their reputation from word-of-mouth impressions (the customer telling others that the company admitted wrongdoing, prompting more people to contest their own penalties), or what. But if they think it's LEGAL protection, they're wrong, lol. Because I'll tell you who was the last business to say that mess to me -my own bank in 2012, when they waived a bunch of $37 overdraft fees that they took by rearranging the order of my transactions. Or to be more precise, when I informed them I had PROOF that they did it (printouts of my account page: 1. Showing my transactions in their true order, then 2. Showing them rearranged hours later).

This happened repeatedly, and guess what? I didn't throw those printouts away when I got my money refunded; I had a feeling I might need them someday. Sure enough, toward the end of the year I just happened to hear of a local law firm seeking customers who'd been scammed this way by this particular bank. So I called them up. When they heard that I had before/after evidence from mulitple rearrangement incidents, they excitedly asked if they could make copies. So I took the pages to their firm, they made the copies, and told me that with how slow the legal process was, I should just forget about this possible class action suit for at least a year, because they were just in the earliest investigative phase. -I forgot about it for TWO years actually, then along comes a check for $5000 in the mail. -They pursued and won the case, and most of the banking customer litigants in the class just got little fractions of the settlement, but they gave me that big chunk for being a .... I forget the term ....... "contributing witness" or something like that.

The very idea of a corporation giving out money they don't have to "as a courtesy" is laughable on its' face.

jokass

OP2 years ago

If you're out celebrating I wouldn't blame you, but if you do happen to come back and check replies, may I recommend you go to the one that first suggested the BBB contact, and click 'Best Answer' at the bottom of that post?

Done and done -- thanks for the reminder! @cardxcraft was the first to suggest it here and gets the cred. I must have seen the specific district info (BBB of Silicon Valley) on another thread, though I coulda sworn someone posted it in here.

Now about that "as a courtesy" thing. -This is verbiage that a lot of businesses use when they don't want to admit they messed up, and may even reiterate that it was YOU who messed up (like suggesting you review the MBG), which is very irksome, even though they are eliminating the monetary penalty. I don't know if they just want to protect their reputation from word-of-mouth impressions (the customer telling others that the company admitted wrongdoing, prompting more people to contest their own penalties), or what.

That has to be it. The language and feigned misunderstanding of the actual issue must be a total CYA move. There's no motivation to randomly cave on $1500 for the, at this stage and he couldn't have missed the evidence I presented. That said, if it's some kind of PR maneuver, what's the harm in saying "there was a clerical error, sorry"? To put it back on me just underlines that eBay isn't a safe place to sell high-value items. It tells me that they are literally powerless or unwilling to stop even the most brazen and obvious criminals.

Cheers on that $5k bank check! That's one for the ages. Hope you did something fun with it.

jokass

OP3 years ago

Update for anyone interested:

I got no response from eBay for Business on FB. I did reach someone via @AskEbay on Twitter, but it's basically the same stock answer I've been getting from overseas reps:

I've got this claim pulled up here, looks like this transaction shows that it was reviewed by our specialist, high value team and the appeal was denied. We're only able to review a claim for appeal once, so with this one being denied, we don't have any additional options through eBay. With this information you've gathered, I do recommend continuing to work with your local law enforcement to investigate this more in depth. I wish you the best of luck, please let us know if there's anything more that we can review with you. Have a lovely weekend! ~Holly

Other than continuing to block eBay from my bank account (which will eventually mean collections --> ruined credit) is there anything else I can do? I just cannot believe we live in a world where a corporation can be so recklessly blind and we have to shoulder the cost. It's extra frustrating because I knew this was a scam way before the return process was initiated, reported the buyer, threw up every defense I could, collected ironclad evidence and eBay was just asleep at the wheel at every stage.

triplecgirl

·3 years ago

574 View listings

eBay is a wonderful place for scammers. I learned the hard way. Even as a 20 year perfect record seller, a scammer came and took me for 100.00 or so. I did win the case on appeal, meaning the scammer got paid, and eBay paid me out.
Scammers win unfortunately. Until eBay listens to it's good sellers when a buyer is suspicious, and bounces bad buyers quickly, I don't sell anything I can't afford to lose.
Just too bad I am an honest person. I would have a cheatin' heyday now I understand the system.

sextons-sweet-deals

·3 years ago

11053 View listings

this is the confusing part of the post:

Instead of using the eBay-issued return label, he ordered a $7 camera bag from Adorama, had *that* shipped to me, and provided that tracking number to eBay.

Who paid for the return shipping label and were you informed of the tracking number assigned so you could track the shipping process and date of arrival? Sounds like you were given the tracking #. (my past case, eBay just informed the buyer to return, but the tracking number was not shared with me. About a week later, eBay said package returned and buyer refunded. I never received the item back!

Some theories to think about and hope others chime in.

The buyer probably had the camera bag on hand. They just packed it and used the label eBay provided to return.

I would also entertain the thought of the buyer may be working at Adorama just because I don't understand how they could buy on-line and provide Adorama with the same tracking number in order to ship back to the seller.

Curious on the timeline of the eBay label being provided and when the package was received? I know the eBay return time frame is way too long. eBay wants sellers to ship ASAP to buyer, but a buyer has like 2-3 weeks to return from my past experience.

jokass

OP3 years ago

@sextons-sweet-deals

eBay paid for and provided *a* return shipping label to the buyer. I believe they did this to appease me because I had reported the buyer and was trying to alert them to the scam. They were given 15 days to then return the camera. The buyer did not use this label and the 15 days came and went. When I then tried to close the case on eBay (on the advice of a phone rep), eBay immediately closed the case in favor of the buyer, saying he used his own shipping method and tracking. (I had never received this tracking, of course.)

When I finally got eBay to provide the alternate tracking, I was able to see the weight discrepancy and that the address was in Tennessee -- an Adorama warehouse. I then remembered that I had, in fact, received a cheap camera bag from Adorama a week earlier and had no idea why. (I often order from Adorama so it didn't raise a red flag.)

The tracking number the buyer provided to eBay is the one Adorama provided to him. Clear as mud? ðŸ™‚

gurlcat

·3 years ago

I don't think the automatically-provided return label was issued to appease you. If the buyer (scammer) chose Arrived Damaged or Item Not As Described from the return reason menu, these are "seller's fault" reasons that not only force you to accept the return, but also give the buyer a return label to use immediately, unless I'm mistaken about that part. I've been using Free Returns for so long because of all the trouble it actually avoids, and I do think I remember one of the hassles of No Returns was having to hand-type, buy, and send the labels to INAD/Damaged return buyers .... but that was years ago, and since then I feel like I've seen a lot of stories here where the labels are automatic.

ANYWAY, kind of a moot point, let's move on. I would urge you to read the post and all the replies to a very similar case that has been going on at the same time as yours, titled 'Buyer return an envelope to get $2.5k refund of 8 lb item' (just enter buyer return an envelope in the search bar, in case I didn't type the title precisely right). His case is so similar to yours I had to edit-delete one of my replies because I was thinking of a detail that YOU had said about your case, LOL. The reason I urge you to read that thread is specifically because his case was extremely similar and he was even told the case was closed with NO appeals left. But apparently by following advice given during the discussion ....this was CRAZY to watch happen in real time .... at nearly 4 A.M. this morning he wrote to say he just got a message that Ebay changed their mind and were REVERSING their findings, and NOT holding him responsible for the refund!!!

Now, I'm not saying if you do what he did you will get the same result. I don't know how the timelines compare, and one key difference is you blocked Ebay from taking the refund money from you. -That might be a big enough strike against you that they won't change their mind no matter what. But at least it's worth trying.

jokass

OP3 years ago

@gurlcat wrote:
I don't think the automatically-provided return label was issued to appease you. If the buyer (scammer) chose Arrived Damaged or Item Not As Described from the return reason menu, these are "seller's fault" reasons that not only force you to accept the return, but also give the buyer a return label to use immediately, unless I'm mistaken about that part. I've been using Free Returns for so long because of all the trouble it actually avoids, and I do think I remember one of the hassles of No Returns was having to hand-type, buy, and send the labels to INAD/Damaged return buyers .... but that was years ago, and since then I feel like I've seen a lot of stories here where the labels are automatic.

Yeah, I couldn't believe what a pain it would have been to create the label myself. eBay was telling me I had to go into a physical UPS location to do it and I was on vacation lol. That's why I say they were appeasing me -- they payed for it and sent it because I was complaining about the hassle, the cost and having to contact the buyer directly after reporting him for attempted fraud.

ANYWAY, kind of a moot point, let's move on. I would urge you to read the post and all the replies to a very similar case that has been going on at the same time as yours, titled 'Buyer return an envelope to get $2.5k refund of 8 lb item' (just enter buyer return an envelope in the search bar, in case I didn't type the title precisely right). His case is so similar to yours I had to edit-delete one of my replies because I was thinking of a detail that YOU had said about your case, LOL. The reason I urge you to read that thread is specifically because his case was extremely similar and he was even told the case was closed with NO appeals left. But apparently by following advice given during the discussion ....this was CRAZY to watch happen in real time .... at nearly 4 A.M. this morning he wrote to say he just got a message that Ebay changed their mind and were REVERSING their findings, and NOT holding him responsible for the refund!!!

I was following that thread but didn't see today's updates! Good for that seller, it gives me some hope. I think the "high value team" might not be in effect under $2k, but we'll see. I sent all details via eBay for Business FB Messenger earlier this morning and am awaiting a response.

Now, I'm not saying if you do what he did you will get the same result. I don't know how the timelines compare, and one key difference is you blocked Ebay from taking the refund money from you. -That might be a big enough strike against you that they won't change their mind no matter what. But at least it's worth trying.

You might be right but honestly I don't think one hand knows what the other is doing. No rep I've spoken with can even see that eBay was blocked by my bank. They keep talking about "my refund" and aren't understanding when I try to explain I don't want money -- I want them to cancel a debt.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

Creating a label on your own is not difficult, it is just you simply didn't know how to do it online. There is a difference.

Ebay can't "cancel" the debt, they would issue a refund. Which is why they keep telling you that.

jokass

OP3 years ago

@mam98031 wrote:
Creating a label on your own is not difficult, it is just you simply didn't know how to do it online. There is a difference.

It doesn't have much to do with this case but they told me it had to be done by a UPS employee in this case and regardless I was on vacation without computer access.

Ebay can't "cancel" the debt, they would issue a refund. Which is why they keep telling you that.

As I mentioned, I had my bank block them from taking the money back. They don't owe me money at this point, but they do think I owe them money.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

You do owe them the money because they ruled on the claim. You disputing it is a separate issue. As I said, they can't "cancel" the refund like you would prefer they do, they would have to refund you, which if they did would be held too so you would have to release your hold on the original entry for everything to process.

With that said, as you were advised much earlier in this thread, Ebay is not going to react well to you blocking them from taking the original 1,500. If you haven't already, you are in significant risk of losing your Selling Privileges on this site and it could be for good.

It also doesn't make them want to help you any either. Ebay will get that 1500 from you even if they have to damage your credit and use a collection agency.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

If Ebay sent the label that you paid for to the buyer, then it was the Freight Forwarder that returned the item to you and not the buyer???

jokass

OP3 years ago

@mam98031 wrote:
If Ebay sent the label that you paid for to the buyer, then it was the Freight Forwarder that returned the item to you and not the buyer???

I didn't pay for the label, eBay provided it at no cost to me. The buyer ordered a camera bag from the retailer Adorama and had them send it to me -- neither he nor the (apparent) freight forwarder sent me anything!

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

@jokass wrote:
@mam98031 wrote:
If Ebay sent the label that you paid for to the buyer, then it was the Freight Forwarder that returned the item to you and not the buyer???
I didn't pay for the label, eBay provided it at no cost to me. The buyer ordered a camera bag from the retailer Adorama and had them send it to me -- neither he nor the (apparent) freight forwarder sent me anything!

Well I'm confused.

Why would Ebay refund the buyer for the Camera?

If the buyer mistakenly had an item shipped to you that they purchased from someplace else, how did that get to Ebay refunding the buyer for the Camera?

Either we are missing some details or it is just me that is confused.

jokass

OP3 years ago

Well I'm confused.

Why would Ebay refund the buyer for the Camera?

If the buyer mistakenly had an item shipped to you that they purchased from someplace else, how did that get to Ebay refunding the buyer for the Camera?

Either we are missing some details or it is just me that is confused.

You and me both! ðŸ™‚ Here's the bones of it:

1. Buyer purchases $1500 camera from eBay seller (me)
2. Buyer asks for $400 refund for damages, will not provide evidence of damages
3. Seller reports buyer to Ebay
4. Buyer initiates return, eBay provides return label
5. Buyer ORDERS a $7 item, has it shipped to seller, and uses this tracking info to "prove" to eBay an item was delivered to seller.
6. Seller provides clear evidence showing weight discrepancy and an actual receipt describing what was in this "return". Buyer's tracking number is on this receipt.

That's it. Should be very easy for eBay to tell that it's not a legitimate return.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

Thank you for the recap, that helps.

FYI, check your account, it is likely you paid for that return label.

safan80

·3 years ago

1127 View listings

Contact your State's AG office.

@jokass wrote:
I sold a $1500 camera (no returns) and the buyer quickly turned out to be a scammer. First he asked for $400 for faked damages, then just wanted to return the camera. Which, of course, eBay forced me to accept.

Instead of using the eBay-issued return label, he ordered a $7 camera bag from Adorama, had *that* shipped to me, and provided that tracking number to eBay. The camera weighed 9 pounds, his "return" weighed 0.8. And, of course, the tracking number is on a receipt from Adorama attached to a $7 bag.

Despite the fact that I have documentation of all this painfully obvious scam, eBay sided with the buyer. I appealed and somehow lost that too. I finally reached someone by phone who understood what was going on and they entered a "manual reversal" -- but that was a month ago and every rep I talk to gives me a different story about whether it's still an active appeal or it's dead.

In the meantime, I blocked eBay from taking the $1500 from my bank, because it's their mistake -- not mine. Keep in mind, too, they only payed me around $1270 originally because of seller fees but are trying to take a full $1500. They're going to send this to collections but it's obviously their mistake and I can't reach anyone there who can make a difference.

I submitted the case to the FBI internet crimes division. What else can I do here? I've lost the camera and really can't afford to donate $1500 to eBay or have my credit wrecked.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

That is quite an Ebay ID you chose. ???

Blocking Ebay from pulling the money is a temporary solve for you. However it will likely cost you the ability to sell on this site when Ebay catches up to the problem.

I would suggest that you contact Ebay for Business on Facebook or Twitter for the better trained CSRs.

Here are your options for contacting Ebay Customer Service. Please be aware that for social media CS, you send them a Private Message and briefly explain what your problem or issue is. Feel free to leave your Name, address, phone number and/or your email address in this message. It is private and secure and it may help to speed up the response for you.

https://twitter.com/askebay

https://www.facebook.com/eBay/

Your options will be on the left. If you use the link below you can only get to the Automated Assistant or Chat box type AGENT in the box and hit enter. You will then get more options. Not all options are available 24/7. It will depend on staffing available. So sometimes you can request a call back and sometimes you can't. Sometimes you have the Chat option available and other times it won't me. If it is important to you to use one of those options, just try back later.

If you use a cell phone or other mobile device, you may need to turn off your Spam filter so that Ebay can call you.

If you are a seller outside of the US or Canada, you will need to use the Chat Option.

https://www.ebay.com/help/home

For the Payment Team / Managed Payment Customer Service.

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/start-getting-paid-ebay?id=4795&st=

jokass

OP3 years ago

@mam98031 Great info, many thanks! It's amazing to me that the actual means of contacting CS are kept a secret.

The user name was chosen 20 years ago and is a combo of my first and last name. Lucky me. ðŸ™‚

I have no interest in selling on eBay ever again after this, but I am concerned that they will send this to collections and ruin my credit. Hoping to resolve it before it gets there!

an-57470

·3 years ago

0 View listings

Companies like Ebay are scammers, in it to make money. They have a million other sales and will disregard one seller or buyer. It is unfortunate. Here's to the very far future, where online stores are shutdown and we have awesome transactions in the community.

I hope your concern works out for you.

jokass

OP3 years ago

@ittybitnot This is incredibly useful information. Exactly what I was looking for in posting here -- thank you. I wish I had known about eBay CS earlier, as I have been trapped in this limbo for a month and it's less likely to be overturned at this stage. Nonetheless, you've given me something to at least try.

The item was received and signed for by someone in Miami, but the business at the address is a shipping company. The buyer shows as being registered in the US. I was only able to find out that he is based in Panama through an extensive Google search.

I'll keep you posted -- thanks a million.

cambriachick

·3 years ago

1289 View listings

Sorry this happened to you. If you read the boards at all, you will see sellers are constantly reminded not to select No Returns because it makes it way too easy to be ripped off, exactly as you were. You might want to consider changing your policy for your remaining listings.

ed8108

·3 years ago

2507 View listings

@jokass wrote:
The camera weighed 9 pounds, his "return" weighed 0.8. And, of course, the tracking number is on a receipt from Adorama attached to a $7 bag.

How did ebay explain away the weight disparity between original & return shipping weights ?

Buyer by first asking $400 for camera damages confirms that this buyer received delivery of the camera that was listed.

Wouldn't the manufacturer confirm this camera as weighting more than 0.8 ?

Good luck in your appeal

inhawaii

·3 years ago

Ebay's most handsome seller.4909 View listings

@ed8108 wrote:
@jokass wrote:
The camera weighed 9 pounds, his "return" weighed 0.8. And, of course, the tracking number is on a receipt from Adorama attached to a $7 bag.

How did ebay explain away the weight disparity between original & return shipping weights ?
Buyer by first asking $400 for camera damages confirms that this buyer received delivery of the camera that was listed.
Wouldn't the manufacturer confirm this camera as weighting more than 0.8 ?

Good luck in your appeal

The weight difference means absolutely nothing as ebay does not investigate any claim.

ed8108

·3 years ago

2507 View listings

@inhawaii wrote@

The weight difference means absolutely nothing as ebay does not investigate any claim.

----------------- ------------- ---

Ebay should evaluate all evidence in this claim to arrive at a just & fair determination.

Seller should be granted a motion for reconsideration, clarification, & explanation with findings of fact

Seller does appear firm in his position as unwilling to donate $1270 to ebay.

safan80

·3 years ago

1127 View listings

Ebay doesn't understand basic math. You are asking too much from them and this is why you contact the local police department of the area you shipped to, your own police department, the FBI if you must, the AG office of both states if is a forwarding shipper.

@ed8108 wrote:
How did ebay explain away the weight disparity between original & return shipping weights ?
Buyer by first asking $400 for camera damages confirms that this buyer received delivery of the camera that was listed.
Wouldn't the manufacturer confirm this camera as weighting more than 0.8 ?

Good luck in your appeal

jokass

OP3 years ago

@safan80 Unfortunately, I agree. Despite giving them tons of clear proof, they either ignored it or couldn't do the math. I contacted the police and they told me to contact the FBI, which I did.

safan80

·3 years ago

1127 View listings

What happened when you contacted the FBI.

@jokass wrote:
@safan80 Unfortunately, I agree. Despite giving them tons of clear proof, they either ignored it or couldn't do the math. I contacted the police and they told me to contact the FBI, which I did.

jokass

OP3 years ago

https://www.fdic.gov/consumers/assistance/filecomplaint.html

@safan80 wrote:
What happened when you contacted the FBI

- Nothing, at least not yet. I filled out a form online and they offered no timeline or promises that they'd follow up.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

@jokass wrote:
@safan80 wrote:
What happened when you contacted the FBI

- Nothing, at least not yet. I filled out a form online and they offered no timeline or promises that they'd follow up.

This is not likely something they will respond to. Make sure you pull all your evidence together. Create a MS Word document or a PDF file that contains everything. Emails, tracking info, Original weight info on the package, documentation from the carrier on how much the return package weighted, etc. Get it all in a document that you can attach to the complaints you choose to file.

And don't forget about Small Claims Court. Many of them you can appear Virtually now, so doing a cross country case is easier as long as you have your evidence.

BTW did you know that USPS take pics of the packages along their adventures of getting delivered? You might try to get that on the original package and on the returned package. That can show differences too.

These are some options for filing a complaint.

https://www.uspis.gov/

https://fraud.org/

https://www.justice.gov/

https://www.usacops.com/

https://www.usa.gov/state-attorney-general

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

@jokass

By the way, all those links are for filing complaints about the BUYER, not Ebay. This is on the buyer.

jokass

OP3 years ago

@mam98031 Thanks for all this! Yeah, that's been my approach -- collect all evidence in one place and keep it simple and irrefutable. Both shipments were actually via UPS and since the buyer is actually based in Panama but using a US shipping company as his front, I have not been able to find a path to small claims court.

All police and government agencies I've contacted have referred me to FBI Internet Crimes.

duffy4444

·3 years ago

10839 View listings

No, eBay did not try to steal from you... the buyer did and was successful. eBay is only the entity in the middle as the billboard. You are the one posting your notice on the billboard, so to speak. It is up to you to be wise enough to know the drawbacks of posting here or anywhere on the internet, which is the really big overall billboard.

Your errors:

1. "No Returns" does not mean "No Refunds". eBay's Money Back Guarantee trumps all of that.

2. You should have read eBay's warnings about the types of scams and how to avoid them.

3. When you "reach someone by phone" at eBay, chances are that you're not talking to a real eBay employee with the authority or power to actually solve a problem. This the first I have heard of a "manual reversal". It was either a lie, or the phone rep was not authorized to do anything like that. No, they don't really "understand what is going on", or even really care about your dilemma. These phone reps often read off a script, or will tell you anything just to get you off the phone. In support of this is your statement that every rep you talked to gave you a different story. There will probably be no "reversal", because it didn't go anywhere. In the future, if you want to reach a real eBay employee, go to Ebay For Business on Facebook and send a message (do not simply post there).

4. You blocked eBay from taking the $1500 from your account. Perhaps you can absorb the consequences of a collection agency trying to get you to pay it, and having a big ding on your credit for many years. That is a value judgment on your part.

5. You've been around since 2000. That's long enough to have become familiar with all of the heartbreaking buyer scams going on, that have also been well documented on this forum.

6. MOST IMPORTANTLY: NEVER, EVER sell, and especially ship, any high-value item that you and your business model cannot afford to lose, along with the double insult of losing your payment for it on a forced return or credit card chargeback that is way out of line with reality. Like many other seasoned sellers here, I am constantly stressing this when scammed sellers post their anger and sad experiences here. Higher value items should be sold locally, on consignment, in a garage sale, or on a venue like CraigsList of FaceBook Marketplace, where a buyer has to show up in person at a place agreed upon, sees the item, asks questions about it, and then pays with CASH before shaking hands and then leaving with their treasure. No cc chargebacks, no having to go thru a third party like eBay, no FBI crime filings, police reports, USPS complaint filings, and no having to deal with eBay telephone reps who don't really want to hear your story or take any real authoritative action - because they can't.

All this said, I am sorry to hear about your loss, but that's what online selling is all about - making money, but including dangers and scammers.

Cheers, Duffy

cardxcraft

·3 years ago

Very good information and advice. The only contention: selling locally for cash. The couterfeit currency has been so dialed in, there's currency that shows up as authentic with money marker. Its definitely the exception, so probably not much to worry about.

But, to your point, its probably wise to sell high dollar, high scam items in person.

jokass

OP3 years ago

I appreciate the detailed response, @duffy4444 .

1. I know it, was merely including that detail for background.

2. I didn't fall for it. I was alerting eBay from the moment the guy asked for $400 cash for damages he wouldn't provide evidence of despite me requesting it that he was a fraud. eBay wouldn't respond other than to tell me I needed to accept the return.

3. You nailed it! The phone reps will say anything. I've talked to 20+ at this point and most of them have said I'm in the right and not not to worry. your eBay for Business tip is fantastic -- I didn't know and will try that immediately.

4. I haven't resolved this yet. I'm hoping for resolution before I have to make that choice.

5. I don't sell much but am savvy enough to have seen this coming. I didn't have reservations about the initial transaction because the buyer had lots of recent feedback.

6. You're right. Lesson learned. I sell infrequently and have never had a bad experience but my days of selling on eBay are over.

Cheers!

rugerskick

·3 years ago

2378 View listings

More accurately, ebay enables and facilitates scammers to steal from sellers, via their "policies". Policies they often ignore and do not follow themselves.

gurlcat

·3 years ago

@duffy4444 wrote:

2. You should have read eBay's warnings about the types of scams and how to avoid them.

You should avoid tying to shame someone as if they carelessly set themselves up for a thing like this.
There's no way to "avoid" someone sending back a worthless object just to show a return delivery scan and get a full refund on the item they bought.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

@gurlcat wrote:
@duffy4444 wrote:

2. You should have read eBay's warnings about the types of scams and how to avoid them.

You should avoid tying to shame someone as if they carelessly set themselves up for a thing like this.
There's no way to "avoid" someone sending back a worthless object just to show a return delivery scan and get a full refund on the item they bought.

I completely agree with you. @duffy4444 How would a seller prevent this? It would be a good thing for all of us to know that.

duffy4444

·3 years ago

10839 View listings

@gurlcat wrote:
@duffy4444 wrote:

2. You should have read eBay's warnings about the types of scams and how to avoid them.

You should avoid tying to shame someone as if they carelessly set themselves up for a thing like this.
There's no way to "avoid" someone sending back a worthless object just to show a return delivery scan and get a full refund on the item they bought.

@gurlcatand @mam98031:

I know that the OP innocently ran into this scam unforeseen, but the OP did unknowingly set himself up for the scam. I should have worded #2 like this: "2. You should have heeded warnings about the types of scams and how to avoid them by reading on this forum about sending a high value item to a freight forwarder."

There are a lot of heart-breaking posts and warnings here from sellers who did just what the OP did, albeit innocently. Shipping to freight forwarders substantially increases the risk of an international scam. It could have been avoided by first researching the potential buyer's real destination address, realizing that all buyers get only 100% positive feedback, not shipping the item, cancelling the sale, refunding the buyer, accepting a possible ding on the OP's metrics, and instead selling a $1500 camera by a different method where control of the outcome is much better with cash. This is what I further explained in #6.

Some think sending an item to a freight forwarder is ok in any circumstances. I will send lower value items to one without any concerns, as my business model could handle the occasional INR loss or international scam. But a $1500 camera? No way.

I learned my lesson by losing $750 on a similar FF scam about 15 years ago... That's why I am so adamant about not selling high-value items on eBay, Amazon, or Etsy in the first place - even domestically. Many other seasoned sellers have posted on this forum the same. My safety cutoff is around $80-$125, depending on the category.

My post was not intended to shame the OP, who did respond to the scam in the correct way except for trusting eBay CS telephone reps, and I apologize if it came across that way. But all of us sometimes need realistic advice when they request it here.

Cheers, Duffy

jokass

OP3 years ago

@duffy4444 wrote:
@gurlcat wrote:
@duffy4444 wrote:

   2. You should have read eBay's warnings about the types of scams and how to avoid them.

You should avoid tying to shame someone as if they carelessly set themselves up for a thing like this.
There's no way to "avoid" someone sending back a worthless object just to show a return delivery scan and get a full refund on the item they bought.
@gurlcatand @mam98031:

   I know that the OP innocently ran into this scam unforeseen, but the OP did unknowingly set himself up for the scam. I should have worded #2 like this: "2. You should have heeded warnings about the types of scams and how to avoid them by reading on this forum about sending a high value item to a freight forwarder."

   My post was not intended to shame the OP, who did respond to the scam in the correct way except for trusting eBay CS telephone reps, and I apologize if it came across that way. But all of us sometimes need realistic advice when they request it here.

Genuinely appreciated, @duffy4444 . I sell infrequently and didn't know this forum existed prior to this. In fact, I'd not heard of a freight forwarding scam until yesterday. In 23 years on eBay, I've never had one transaction go sideways until this one so I was caught flat-footed.

duffy4444

·3 years ago

10839 View listings

@jokass wrote:

... Genuinely appreciated, @duffy4444 . I sell infrequently and didn't know this forum existed prior to this. In fact, I'd not heard of a freight forwarding scam until yesterday. In 23 years on eBay, I've never had one transaction go sideways until this one so I was caught flat-footed.

@jokass:

I still sympathize with you on your loss, as I had one somewhat similar to yours about 15 years ago. That one woke me up.

Sometimes a loss of even a few bucks can still hurt, especially when eBay should be doing much better on setting up a scammer complaint database and getting rid of obvious domestic and international scammers. And then there's the shameful fact of the CS telephone reps who routinely lie or give terrible and conflicting advice to sellers who lose so much money on obvious scams.

I certainly wish eBay would come up with real teeth in the current joke of "Seller Protections". Working out some kind of anti-scam insurance policy wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd pay extra for it, expand my international sales, list higher-value items here both domestically and internationally, and eBay would then see a massive increase in their own profits as a result. So far... crickets from eBay.

Cheers, Duffy

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

Did you ship to a Freight Forwarder? If so, what was the return address on the package you got back?

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

I would still disagree. A freight forwarder is not the buyer, they are just the address in which the item was shipped. Once the FF ships the item to the buyer, the buyer loses their MBG coverage.

With that said, I don't believe the OP ever said they shipped to a FF.

cardxcraft

·3 years ago

Keep all of your paperwork, and file a complaint with the BBB and USPS. Also, file a police report with the PD of the buyer's city.

I would go to the post office, and have the postmaster write a letter stating the origin of the scammers return and the weight, etc.

Keep all of this paperwork and submit with BBB.

lawnmowerpartsstore2

·3 years ago

16591 View listings

Keep all of this paperwork and submit with BBB

BBB is a complete waist of time and means absolutely nothing

jokass

OP3 years ago

@cardxcraft Great response -- thanks! The police sent me to the FBI, so that's where I filed the report. I sent it via UPS and the Adorama return was via UPS Mail Innovations... which utilizes USPS but I'm not sure the chain of responsibility there.

cardxcraft

·3 years ago

What the buyer did was criminal, not entitled. On top of this, the scammer used USPS, which makes it a federal crime.

It's very obvious the buyer has used this same method on other unsuspecting Ebay sellers- grand larceny with federal fraud. They knew exactly what to do.

If Ebay is planning on changing the perception to high brow, they had better put a system in place that allows sellers to vet buyers on high dollar transactions; an authenticity guaranteed for sellers to vet buyers.

I'm so grateful I don't sell in these high scam categories.

ittybitnot

·3 years ago

18 View listings

@jokass

It appears you are a victim of the classic "cheap trinket return scam". It is the seller victim version of a 'fake tracking scam'. Since you do not mention a payment dispute (aka credit card chargeback) I assume this was an eBay 'not as described claim'.

Did you originally ship this to a freight forwarder address? The cheap trinket return scam has been quite popular with some of those out of US buyers that utilize the forwarder services, and there are different seller/buyer protection rules in place.

eBay knows all about this scam. Their first line of defense is to deny, deny, deny, and deny some more that you have been made a victim, until you go away. They may just consider it another 'faulty return' for which there is no seller protection unless a FF is involved which you must point out yourself to someone other than the outsourced foreign customer service reps you get by call back or chat. I would imagine that since they can't snag back your money, it has made your problem worse (or not).

Re examine the buyer details.

jokass

OP3 years ago

@ittybitnot -- thanks for reading the whole post and understanding the situation. I sent it to a domestic (US) address via UPS. The return shipment was UPS solutions -- which utilizes USPS. The buyer operates out of an import/export business at the Miami airport. He used several names throughout the transaction, which was also a red flag that I raised to eBay.

How does one reach someone who isn't an outsourced overseas rep? I got one very smart and capable person on the phone and they basically said that I was probably fighting a losing battle but they would explain it to a supervisor while I was on hold. They then transferred me to that supervisor who turned out to be completely clueless.

What do you mean by re-examine the buyer details? I've figured out who the guy is, he lives in Panama but somehow operates this business out of Miami.

ittybitnot

·3 years ago

18 View listings

I've figured out who the guy is, he lives in Panama but somehow operates this business out of Miami.

@jokass

Sounds like a freight forwarder to me. When a buyer users a freight forwarder, they often void the use of the money back guarantee. They should be denied making such claims through eBay.

eBay, however, does not actively seek or purposely recognize such addresses and treats the sale as any other regular sale. When problems arise, it is up to the seller to point out that it is a freight forwarder situation, and buyer protection becomes void.

Since the product was shipped out of the US, and the label you provided is only from the freight forwarder address in Miami back to you, the buyer cannot use it to return anything. Thus the 'cheap trinket return scam' is employed to get a tracking number to satisfy eBay as evidence of a return. There was a time that I counted over 45 unique sellers reporting this scam on the boards on in one month's time. It is no secret to eBay.

The eBay system is automated. The regular CS outsourced agents cannot or are not allowed to do anything, and for all intents and purposes eBay protects eBay from monetary loss. Once the buyer is refunded by eBay, they cannot take the money back, thus they want it from you regardless of the circumstances and evidence of the cheap trinket return ploy. The facts will be ignored.

The only way that I know that anyone in your position got any redress is by using the big blue MESSAGE button on this page:

https://www.facebook.com/eBayForBusiness

This is a chat portal that leads directly to US based English speaking reps that do have the authority to help you. Since the regular CS has such a bad reputation of giving out incorrect advice, or being stuck in the deny mode for eternity, these people are quite busy. There is some indication that they have newer employees that read from the old DENY mantra scripts from time to time as well.

You need to ask for assistance. Supply your user ID, item number transaction item number, point out that product was shipped to a freight forwarder, they buyer is registered in Panama and a another product was purchased on the net to satisfy the return tracking requirement. You can point out the difference in parcel weight, and where it was shipped from etc.

Hope for the best, and do let us know how it turns out. Good luck.

bonjourami

·3 years ago

The buyer is entitled to receive a complete refund..what you made from the sale is unimportant.Just be aware that Ebay will turn you over to collections. Good luck.

toomuchstuffagain35

·3 years ago

172 View listings

Only if they actually return what they received.

If the seller & buyer are both domestic there's always small claims court, or contacting the buyer's local PD.

jokass

OP3 years ago

Thanks for picking up on that part, TMS! I'm aware of eBay's policies -- the point is that they did not return the item and eBay is trying to make me shoulder the cost because THEY fell for a scam.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

@toomuchstuffagain35 wrote:
Only if they actually return what they received.

If the seller & buyer are both domestic there's always small claims court, or contacting the buyer's local PD.

Yes and if they used USPS to ship you back the wrong thing, you can file a report with USPS. Using USPS in commission of a fraud, which this is, is a FEDERAL crime.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

@bonjourami wrote:
The buyer is entitled to receive a complete refund..what you made from the sale is unimportant.Just be aware that Ebay will turn you over to collections. Good luck.

Well but the buyer isn't entitled to steal the camera which is what has appeared to happen from what the OP said.

curatedtreasurefinds4u

·3 years ago

555 View listings

Comprehension is hard.

mam98031

·3 years ago

Owner / Operator19676 View listings

@curatedtreasurefinds4u wrote:
Comprehension is hard.

I think she did just fine understanding the issue and what she said is actually what will happen if the seller doesn't take care of it before Ebay steps in. You may not agree with that, but it is what will happen.

bonjourami

·2 years ago