Can you ever win an appeal?
I am kinda new to the selling portion of Ebay and think I learned a lesson. If anyone can tell me if I'm wrong here and explain why I would appreciate it. To me the evidence looks pretty clear cut and I am trying to explain it in 1000 words thanks to Ebay's appeal system. Thankfully this is extra money for me but it is really frustrating none the less. I have been selling some more expensive stuff like watches and hadn't had a problem until now. The watch was 695, he asked for a discount and I said no because the watch was cheaper than anyone else's listing by about 500 dollars. He waited two days and said he would take it. I said ok, I'll pack it right and shipped it off. The day it arrives he says I sent him a padlock and not the watch. I figure I am pretty well screwed. Out of pettiness I sent a return label to get the lock and hopefully tie his money up long enough he would be late on rent. Well the lock I get back doesn't look like like the lock he sent a pic of to start the return. It looks like he stole the lock out/tag out lock from a machine. It has writing on it and no cylinder, clearly not the same lock as the one he sent a pic of. This makes me think to google image search the pic he sent. I find the exact pic on a lockpicking website on reddit. He very clearly grabbed the image from there. I think I got this guy and send in what I had found. How could his pic from June be the same pic exactly from three years ago right? Well nope, they give him all his money and shipping amount, The Ebay reply just says we know that it's not the same item but we decided to refund him because we don't actually lay eyes on the item you sent. Totally ignoring the fact I said I sent a watch and he said a padlock but can't produce the padlock and I found the image was stolen. I know I'm just SOL but with this being the first time for a higher ticket item I guess I just feel powerless. Also knowing I can't really prevent it from happening again either. I don't think I can post pictures on here and I can't link to the Reddit page. Sorry about all the text, guess I'm using this as a way to vent.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoAlso now since the saga has to continue a lot of my listings have now been reported for "description problems". No problems until yesterday. It tells me that I have 11 listings that break Ebay policies. Like a Fallout Quantum Bear is delisted because it is in the Video game merchandise category and a buyer reported it as misleading. I have to set it into another category. I'm pretty sure someone is messing with me but I'm getting a little tired of fighting. I think I am just going to swap it around and add keywords tot he title.
fbusoni
·2 years ago"The watch was 695, he asked for a discount and I said no because the watch was cheaper than anyone else's listing by about 500 dollars. "
Asking for a discount is a huge red flag indicating you are dealing with a troublemaker.
I immediately block anyone who asks for a discount.
It's not coincidental that eBay gives us 5000 names to block.
There are a LOT of cretins out there.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoI think you are right. I am a smaller seller just starting out and I was worried about the low transaction buyers. They are some of my best customers. The ones wanting a deal are the ones I have to watch. When I say no (nicely) they almost get mad. I hear a lot "it's for my kid". They feel entitled to it almost.
fbusoni
·2 years agoThat bit in red translated: "The one my kid has is broken, and I can't afford a new one, so I'm gonna take yours and send the broken one back to you and tell eBay that you sent it to me broken."
linenandlaceltd
·2 years agoI had this happen last winter. I sold a brand new pair of shoes, they were in great shape when I shipped them off. Got a message from the buyer saying she tried them on and they just fell apart. She showed me pictures of the same type of boot, but looking very worn and very damaged, the price tag had also been cut off. She ended up contradicting herself in her claims, which helped.
I contacted eBay, I let them know I was being scammed and was adamant I wasn't going to give in to this person. Unfortunately the best case scenario in situations like this is they keep the item, get their money back, but eBay lets you keep yours too. If you haven't gotten your money back, fight for it. Be polite but really emphasize your case, that you sent what you sold and that you didn't even receive the same kind of lock they claimed you sent them. I speak to agents on eBay's chat system, sometimes multiple ones over the same issue if need be, and over the years I've never had a situation where someone deliberately damaged my items/tried to scam and not get to keep my money from the sale in the end.
I'm so sorry this happened to you, good luck!
isaiah53-57
·2 years ago@jatecosales
You learned something alright...Sorry it was the hard way...
Your situation is exactly the reason we no longer list here - As you now see, thievery here is as easy as the buyer saying you sent him/her a this instead of a that and you are, as you so eloquently put it, "SOL"...
jatecosales
OP2 years agoYeah, I did my onboarding with another selling site today. I expected some scammers but I was hoping ebay would at least listen. I can't even leave bad feedback for the buyer to warn others.
chariot_badges
·2 years agoThere is NO WAY I'd be able to sell a $700 ANYTHING on ebay and be able to sleep at night. At that price you got about a 50/50 chance of getting ripped.
This place is for cheap chachka plastic mass-produced crap that is worth nothing, that you can sell for $10.
eBay is not what it used to be.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoI am starting to agree with you! I think I learned my lesson. I had actually sold a bunch of stuff for 5, 7, 900 bucks and not had a problem. Even people with no feedback gave me great reviews. Just one guy ruins everything.
m60driver
·2 years agoTo answer your question, only a very few folks have won appeals, but in this scam scenario it is unlikely for a seller to win an appeal. And as an aside, when filing an appeal run your response through Chat GPT first. All the professional people I know are running their writing through Chat GPT if not just having Chat GPT write for them.
adamcartwright
·2 years agoThis seller forum is sure a great step-by-step tutorial for would-be thieves and scammers.
I hope none of my buyers ever discover it.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoFrom the looks of it you don't really need to be a criminal mastermind. Just get Ebay to help you.
tinsoldierunderground
·2 years agoUnfortunately, your analogy is spot on...the way ebay's deck is stacked, buyer could send a half eaten pack of Twinkies with tracking, and ebay would rule in their favor.
12345jamesstamps
·2 years agoYour item sent should show where buyer post his photo of what was sent...you show be able to post his photo and yours....otherwise, why does eBay ask for photos and doesn't use them?
jatecosales
OP2 years agoHis photo is what I am using to compare and really the Ebay rep probably has to handle like 500 of these cases a day so he's just rubber stamping them.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoHere is the pic he sent in for the return and here is the 3 year old reddit page.
12345jamesstamps
·2 years agoI did win one back in December. First, remember you are corresponding to eBay.
I actually wrote and used all 1000 words politely and businesslike. I actually did a draft before actually posting my thoughts. This 'win' was actually a credit card chargeback I won but almost the same thing.
You are allowed to post photos...I think 12...You can take them with a camera, iPhone or whatever.
Make sure you put something...anything where it asks for photos or documentation.
I also do mention the buyer ID where...country he is from...new buyer...old buyer...check his feedback...is he still registered on eBay...It's a lot of researching. I am pretty sure you can do photos...might be called 'documentation' or something else. eBay sometimes changes how to add photos.
Again, dates and everything I got to tell you it is so important.
Good luck.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoThank you! I appreciate that. I have a little hope now. I did add pics of everything and my postal inspector report code to my appeal. For some reason I couldn't post them here but now I just saw the camera icon. I kept it formal, even though I am stressed I know it's not the ebay admin fault, the scammer caused all this. I wish I just didn't get back form letter correspondence.
justforfun.2010
·2 years agoI never heard eBay change an appeal.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoSadly that's what I am seeing more and more. I'm thinking of moving on from Ebay just because this could happen again. 99% of the people I work with on here are great, it's just the scammers that ruin it like everything.
ittybitnot
·2 years agoThe day it arrives he says I sent him a padlock and not the watch.
@jatecosales
If a buyer chooses any "item not as described" reason from the dropdown menu, at that point for all intents and purposes that is exactly what your item becomes in the eyes of eBay. Veracity is never considered. This is a bot driven activity, with predictable results. Intervention by customer service is not allowed. As a seller you are expected to "suck it up" as part of doing business here.
You photos no longer matter, your text will never be read, and your tenure on the site is meaningless. As a matter of fact, it appears when the buyer is required to post a photo of 'what they got instead' it is never viewed either. The first I saw was a buyer that posted a picture of a dead duck instead of the item, and was refunded. Subsequent reports here indicate a black square as a pic will suffice, or any photo of anything will allow the claim to proceed as usual.
I don't think eBay has cared what a buyer sends back for years. Lately it seems they don't care if the return ever arrives for they seem to be refunding from the seller's proceeds simply because "it should have arrived by now." Send a computer, get back a box of rubber bands, does not prevent the buyer from getting a refund from your proceeds. Anything can be had for free (at the seller's expense) here with the right kind of phony claim.
That said, there are two ways that you loss can be lessened. If you qualify, when you get a faulty return you can select to refund only 50%. That way you only get "half way" ripped off. The other is if you sent the product to a non-us user that uses a Freight Forwarder with a US address. eBay will not tell you that a freight forwarder was used, nor what you have to do to avoid having to refund. They are treated like any other sale, with the hopes that you don't notice, or know what to do. (The helpers here DO KNOW, in case it happens to you, and can advise you. Remember Delaware, Florida, Oregon, are the most common but not inclusive addresses).
Otherwise, the advice often given is to NOT post anything for sale here that you can not afford to lose. Or as in this case pay extra on top of that to "maybe" get the product back. Know your risk tolerance, and remember selling local for cash is good and a lot less expensive. US buyers do not like getting the case number from your Postal Inspectors report either.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoYeah I think you are right, that's my biggest problem is that I don't feel like Ebay even cares. I understand that they don't know what we send or what we get back, thats just risk. He used the ebay mail system to send a pic that I can show came from somewhere else and they can verify it. Thats what's killing me. I can 100% proven he copied a pic from somewhere else, I feel like that should work in my favor.
ittybitnot
·2 years agoI can 100% proven he copied a pic from somewhere else, I feel like that should work in my favor.
@jatecosales
We know. eBay is judge, jury, executioner. Those that control the money, control the outcome even if it done by an AI bot. Unfortunately, eBay is not interested in your proof. It won't hurt or cost you anything to appeal, but just be prepared. It is the same bot action.
BTW to what city/state did you ship this product?
jatecosales
OP2 years agoIt went to Puerto Rico from Louisiana. He had it set up right though, didn't even have his real address on the account. Sent it to the post office but not as a PO box.
ittybitnot
·2 years agoor just use it for the shipping discounts
@jatecosales
Pirate Ship..... same or better shipping discounts
jatecosales
OP2 years agoOh yeah you can't beat the discounts. Pirate ship is ok but I bought something from England and they shipped it through DHL using pirate ship and DHL said they wouldn't honor any claims because we used a third party service to get the label.
ittybitnot
·2 years agowe used a third party service to get the label.
@jatecosales You bought your own label to get something shipped to you from the UK ..????
Makes no sense. Never knew PS could issue a DHL label. Oh well. Hope things work out for you!
gurlcat
·2 years agoHow can the loss be lessened in a 'freight forwarder' case? Just curious in case I ever get one of those returns.
profitweb
·2 years agoPlease, try to call eBay Customer Support, tomorrow during work hours if possible.
You need to call them before the time runs out to give buyer a refund. If you pass the time to give a refund and do nothing, buyer will automatically be fully refunded and you'll have no recourse.
I would report the buyer, and show images and communications.
KEEP IT SHORT.
DON'T USE RUN-ON SENTENCES.
EXAMPLE:
"I mailed expensive watch to buyer.
Buyer lied, claimed I sent a padlock and they provided a photo of a padlock.
Buyer sent return, using label I supplied. I received a different padlock than they had originally pictured. My watch is missing.
I've been scammed. They stole the item."
I'm so sorry this happened to you. Please update us on the result. Try to be patient and calm with support.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoI appreciate that. I did contact support, they ruled in favor of the buyer. I'm waiting on the appeal decision now but I think you are right, I will try and call tomorrow. If they could at least explain why they made the decision they did I could understand better. I may not be happy but at least I would understand.
monster-deals
·2 years agoTo appeal you would need to let the return escalate.
On appeal ebay can/will send you an affidavit to sign. You upload it and any other documentation you have.
A dangerous game of chicken.
I have won my 3 switcheroos that way.
Be warned the process may have changed since my last win was 6 months ago or so.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoI just wanted you to know I appreciate your reply. I appreciate everyone's, good or bad, but I took your advice and let the process work. They guy did get his money back but Ebay covered my loss and on my 2nd appeal I think I got ahold of someone that looked over what I sent in. He wasn't in a place to keep the buyer's money but helped me. Overall it's a win but I was hoping to teach the buyer a lesson to save someone else he may do this too. I am happy Ebay sided with me, it was a little rough for a bit but If someone else is reading this that is going through the same thing follow profitweb's example. Also I did get lucky in a way. If my scammer wouldn't have been so cheap and just took a pic of something he had lying around and sent it back to me I would have been SOL. That's not really Ebay's fault because it's he said, she said. If you have some real evidence then fight the case. If you just think you can sway the Ebay rep to your side then you should probably stop while you're behind. Scummy people are everywhere and they get even scummier when they can hide behind a computer screen. I just have to concentrate on my great buyers that chat me up about Fallout stuff and slip them a little discount for buying from me again. Oh, always take a sec to reverse image search that supposed wrong item immediately. If you do get lucky like I did use it to scare the buyer into telling the truth, you may get lucky and not have to go through all this mess...... maybe.
kensgiftshop
·2 years agoLets hope thyey stick with that decission.
ittybitnot
·2 years ago@jatecosales
Thanks for the update!
gurlcat
·2 years agoThis is a fascinating thread and CONGRATS on the outcome (well, I do have one concern about that, more on that in a minute).
But I am a bit confused about what you did. In fact I'm confused by @profitweb 's advice. -That said to "call" eBay but then said to avoid run-on sentences as if they were talking about writing. So I don't know how you followed the advice in the first place since it seemed to be two different instructions. And anyway, what DID you do? 'Ryan' mentions a "signed declaration" and an "affidavit" -What is he talking about??? That doesn't sound like anything profitweb advised.
Now as for Ryan's "decision" -please keep us informed about whether you actually get those funds released. I have a (admittedly vague) memory of someone posting here a similar message from an eBay rep ... but they didn't get the funds and had to go through several more rounds of contact to try to convince other eBay reps that the decision had been made, and I don't remember how it turned out in the end.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoYes the funds were returned to me, I have them now. I did both, I spoke to them on the phone and most of the correspondence was done through Ebay's message system. After the first decision was made and I lost I appealed and then I called the next day and spoke to a rep. It was easier for me to explain because they had the documents in front of them. This case originally started the beginning of June. The declaration I signed just comes after they said I won the appeal, it states what I said was true and I wasn't lying to get reimbursed. Profitweb's advice came into play on how to approach the people at ebay and write the appeal so I at least had a chance to win. This was a pretty long process, just when I asked the question if I could win was towards the end.
gurlcat
·2 years agoOhhhhh, so you mean this thread is an update to a previous thread you started in June?
jatecosales
OP2 years agoNo, I started the Ebay case in June with the buyer and Ebay. I started this thread the first time they found in favor of the buyer. After I started the thread is when I filed my appeal. Ebay was actually pretty quick to respond.
isaiah53-57
·2 years agoGood to hear! - Considering our experiences and the many cases of thievery that we've seen go the other way on these boards, I am absolutely astounded you won the appeal - Especially considering there was really nothing unique in Profitweb's post - He/she mentions reporting the buyer, which we consider a joke - One item of ours that got thieved here was from a buyer who had a years worth of false positive feedback for the same exact type of crime and had already been reported by a large number of sellers - That showed us reporting is useless...
I would add not to ever loose sight of the lesson you learned to begin with on how easy it is to be stolen from here...Best of luck to you
gurlcat
·2 years agoReporting the buyer is often an important step toward getting something found in your favor. The key is to do it before you attempt the 'whatever'. Doing it afterward is useless. I was told this by CSR's back when you could talk to knowledgeable ones on the phone.
jatecosales
OP2 years agoAbsolutely report the buyer! I also reported it to the USPS postal inspector. Go to the police and file a report as well. I contacted the police station to where it was delivered and that didn't help. I went to my local police station and got the report. No one is going to actually investigate but I do send that information to the scammer and in my claim with Ebay. My biggest evidence of course was the Reddit post showing where the guy got his pic from but try everything you can. If you were willing to go to the police and USPS I like to think Ebay will at least look at what you are saying a little more......... maybe.
profitweb
·2 years agoI'm so happy you were refunded and the thief didn't get away with it!!!!
That's great news!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YAY EBAY and @jatecosales !
😊
jatecosales
OP2 years agoThank you very much!
profitweb
·2 years ago@gurlcat
Yes, if he can get someone on the phone from eBay support, that is preferable. However, it's not always an option.
It's best to outline a message to prepare for a phone call or a written submission. It helps, no matter what the first communication method is, for clarity. If I got someone one the phone, I'd probably submit a written request too, so I am clear and have a record (and he could include link to the photo's page).
Does that clear up the confusion for you? Thanks
stainlessenginecovers
·2 years agoYou actually have NO PROOF of anything- buyer said you sent 'this' and pictured 'this' what you 'got' cannot be proven because pictures, video etc. is NOT acceptable 'proof' (as it's easy to doctor and or you could easily just be saying 'it's not the same'.
Your 'appeal' could be/should be less than 30 words.
"This buyer is stealing a $700 watch from me! I did NOT send this buyer a 'padlock'- even if I did, it is NOT the one buyer 'pictured"
then you just hope they give you a 'courtesy refund' or portion of.
In the meantime, you can 'report the buyer' for this behavior and when more sellers do the same, then the buyer will be removed from buying here any longer.
You can also file a 'police report' in your city, in their city (attempt by telephone) and the local Post Office (for this person using the Postal Service to steal peoples' stuff)
jatecosales
OP2 years agoThe picture he sent isn't proof? I also provided the Reddit link to the page that had the same picture he got his from. I can't doctor Reddit or the image he sent in through Ebay's system. If I did and sent it as proof they could clearly see I altered it. I filed a police report here, I have my report with the postal inspector. He's in PR and used the post office's physical address to get around me not shipping to P.O. Boxes, I didn't realize it. I didn't really even have an address to give the cops but the post office. I reported the buyer but I guess I'm frustrated in general. I think I may leave Ebay or just use it for the shipping discounts. I'm not sure if I would have better luck selling on another site.
stainlessenginecovers
·2 years agoYes, it's HIS proof and not yours- there is NO PROOF that what you SAID you recieved is what you received so therefore he 'shipped' you back what you shipped him (so he says and when it's a buyer/seller- buyers win).
jatecosales
OP2 years agoThen why would the pic he sent in on June 2024 be the same picture from a 3 year old reddit post? Neither of which I can alter.