Buyer opened item not received case said postmaster refused item sending back.
I received a message from a buyer saying they received a call from the postmaster saying they received a bag with only a shipping label in it and the item was not in the bag and asked if I could explain it. They then opened an item not received case and in it they said the postmaster advised the package was empty and refused the package on their behalf. When I click on the Ebay tracking the last scan says refused. And when I click on the tracking for the USPS site it says refused and to the left it says your item was refused by the addresses and is being returned to the sender. Does anyone know what I should do with this case? Do I need to refund now? The item had ground advantage insurance so at the very least I would like to make sure I at least get this insurance if I need to issue a refund.
spreadlovelikefire
·7 months agoI would call their local post office directly, I've done this quite often when weird occurrences have popped up. Usually get right through with no hold. They'll ask for the tracking number. Explain you are a seller on eBay and the buyer has claimed the post master personally called them and submitted a refusal on their behalf, explain what the buyer told you. If the post master did call them they may have internal notes on it showing that. Over the years, I've had our post master personally come to our home and collect packages from us just because he wanted to. That was a while a ago, he is no longer our post master. So it isn't out of the scope of possibility if you know what I mean. I've also been asked to step in the back of our post office to be shown their internal system in the past. And they have a lot more information on tracking than what is given on the site. So call them!!! If it is a scam they may be able to detect that as well.
As far as messaging the buyer back I would reply 1-time to what they messaged and I would keep it super professional:
Dear Buyer,
I understand your frustration in this matter. The item not received claim is being reviewed by eBay. USPS is also doing an internal review as this is not what I sent. They are having to pull photos from different locations of the box as it moved through the system to be able to determine where it the item was mishandled at. I will let you know as soon as they report back what they find. Tracking is still showing "refused" as the last scan so the item hasn't received any more scans as it makes its way back to me.
Try not to reply with emotion and try not to take their emotions in their email as fuel. People say all types of things. I once had a lady threaten to get a lawyer for a box of Oreo's ($15) for an order that wasn't even late yet. She literally cussed me out and eBay kicked her off immediately and her order was actually delivered ahead of schedule. People can be crazy! Let them be, you be the calm voice of reason.
steve_stuff
·7 months ago" they received a bag with only a shipping label in it and the item was not in the bag and asked if I could explain it"
Happen to a friend - mailed something and got back most of the shipping label still attached to a chunk of the cardboard box in an official branded PO bag marked "Damaged in shipping."
broto_64
·7 months agoEbay policy (and most any online venue) if a buyer refuses delivery they also lose any rights to a refund.
Perhaps that explains the "story," I also think it will be interesting to see what will end up arriving back to you.
Would I refund?
I follow policy, best I can tell you. My buyers do the same, there are times when I lose because policy, it's not right and I don't like it but I follow policy because it's the only thing that is black and white and works out the same way every single time.
Don't refuse a package, my advice.
Do not do it.
Did the postmaster actually refuse the package for the buyer?
That I would look into, just this one time, because if that was the case it would greatly sway my decision. I would certainly inform that postmaster of the consequences of a refused delivery and what should be done instead to protect the buyer against bad actors.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@broto_64 I hope I'm wrong about this (no way to know yet because the OP hasn't made any new replies since yesterday morning) ... but I'm starting to get the sense they would like to go with the statements you made in the first parts of this^ reply, and ignoring your final paragraph (which to me is the most important part).
I understand the urge to take advantage of one of the few policies that favors sellers, considering how many favor buyers, even when it's clearly unfair, especially when the buyers are outright abusing the policies. But that doesn't mean an innocent buyer should pay for the guilty ones. It may even out a seller's losses but it's not "getting even" on bad buyers, because they already got away with their abuses.
This "refusal" by the buyer appears to be a very unusual version of Return To Sender. The reason RTS cancels a buyer's MBG on eBay is because usually the package gets marked RTS and taken back to the post office or put in the mailbox for pickup the day after delivery. -In other words after they had a chance to open it and reject it (for whatever reason), maybe even replace the contents with some other object(s). So basically they could be doing a remorse return without paying for the label, or even pulling a switcheroo scam. But in this case (assuming the buyer didn't lie) they never even saw a package, and what they were told by a high-ranking postal employee probably made them think RTS was the best course of action.
Like you indicated, that postmaster probably has no idea what the consequences of RTS may be, and I seriously doubt most buyers know either. Again your last paragraph was really the most important suggestion the OP should do (should have done it long before now, considering how many people in this thread suggested it) but day after day it has appeared they don't want to know if the buyer was innocent, only how to get away with denying the refund.
albertabrightalberta
·7 months agoAt the beginning of this thread, I was (almost) certain that the buyer was trying to scam the seller (in some unknown way).
However as the debacle has unfolded, I have come to believe the buyer, understand that the buyer didn't receive nor will receive what they paid for.
The longer this goes on, this is the part that bothers me most. As a fairly regular poster to the boards, @mozartbach1971 presumably knows and understands how both sides get taken advantage of and it's upsetting to me that he is seemingly looking for the green light to stick it to a buyer simply because he can.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@albertabrightalberta I mean, as far back as Tuesday the OP said that the buyer was advised BY AN EBAY REP to do an INR (so not only did that postmaster let them down with the wrong advice; so did eBay!) and that the buyer gave the exact town, phone number, and name of the person to ask for (all redacted as "........." in the OP's post):
But then just a couple replies later, here's the OP -no mention of trying to call that number, just concerned with getting eBay to side with them:
@mozartbach1971 If you're still following your thread ... you should know that you're already getting a service metric strike for the INR. -Those are counted regardless of outcome. But you're not going to get a performance defect for 'case closed without seller resolution' because you did update the INR with the tracking.
You could literally sit back and do nothing at this point, just ignore your buyer's pleas, refuse to check up on their clam by making a simple phone call. Heck you might even double your money by filing an insurance claim. But know this: if the buyer files a card chargeback, you will almost certainly lose that, have to retund them without getting your seller fees credited, and they will probably write you a scorching feedback too.
Meanwhile if you just issue them a refund your fees will be credited, you would probably avoid negative feedback, and could still pursue the insurance claim. Then there's the whole question of who's watching. IDK if you believe in God but you sure got a lot of fellow eBay sellers' eyes on this story via this post.
broto_64
·7 months agoI'm not disagreeing, it doesn't benefit us as sellers (or ebay as a venue) to behave in a hostile manner towards buyers, especially ones who could be innocent victims of the system. I probably should have been more direct in that regard, however it took me some reading this thread before I came to the conclusion that this buyer was likely getting caught up in a bad situation over which they had little to no control, and as you mentioned the players involved had no idea of the consequences their actions had in regards to ebay.
I would personally again strongly suggest finding out if that postmaster did indeed return the order him or herself *or* even suggested it to the buyer (perhaps over the phone)... I can believe the buyer never even saw the package if such were the case, but even if it's not I think it wise to give this buyer the benefit of the doubt, especially since we have no proof that says otherwise.
It would be unfortunate as well if the OP decides to simply follow policy, even though it is something I would normally do as well... But again I think we have to take into consideration that this isn't likely a malicious move on the buyer's part and that the buyer deserves to be made whole.
Then, file an insurance claim with the USPS.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 So that^ was Monday, when you started this thread. Now it's 3 days later -do you see new scans showing the package headed back to you?
According to Google, the USPS does continue to show tracking (using the same tracking number) of the RTS progress. But also ..... it can be extremely slow. Basically they're giving a whole second trip for the price of only one label, so these packages get lowest priority. I'm even seeing reports of "months" but I doubt most take that long.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoThe last scan is on 2/3 and it says Alert Refused.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 That doesn't sound good at all. You really need to call that post office.
nh_sales_lv
·7 months agoI just got a Buyer not Received Item. It was purchased Feb. 01 and Delivered Today on Feb. 05.
That's some Quick Shipping 😂 I do.
HOW DOES EBAY GIVE THEM THE OPTION TO CLICK THESE BUTTONS SO FAST ?
THIS EBAYER HAS 800 ITEMS PURCHASED UNDER HIS BELT - SO WHAT GIVES ?
THEY'VE BEEN IN THE RING THIS LONG TO KNOW BETTER
soh.maryl
·7 months agoI don't get it. This happens to me a lot here.
If there's tracking showing it to have been delivered it on the 5th, but the buyer opens an INR case, all you need to do is post the tracking number to the case. Or am I wrong?
tools*
·7 months agoThis isn't the procedure. They would put an official "contents missing" label on what they have and deliver it to you, so you would have proof of loss or damage.
gone.c-33
·7 months agoAll they have is the shipping label, so that’s all they put inside the “We care†plastic envelope.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@tools* Bear in mind we're getting a third-hand account with no screenshot evidence. We're reading what the OP says ... the buyer said ... the post office said, LOL. I'm not saying there were any lies along the way, more likely interpretations.
EDIT: Also USPS employees (even postmasters) are humans who don't always follow the normal protocol, especially small town ones.
gloryglorygifts
·7 months agoI would wait to see what notice you get from ebay since the customer has already opened the INR and you have uploaded the tracking. Something sounds off if you say that you mailed it in a box and the post office claims it was a label in a bag. I wouldn't refund anything just yet. It will be interesting to see just what it is that you do get back. Sounds like a possible theft from a postal employee? When you do get it back, file a claim with them and see if you can recover some funds for this.
Keep us posted!
BTW, I have a business account with the USPS and they have all of my contact info, so I don't think it's out of the question for them to contact someone. Doesn't mean that the customer isn't lying tho.
fern*wood
·7 months agoI had the same thing happen to me. I guess I'm just not nearly as suspicious of my buyers as others. I just thought my label somehow came off my box and became separated, so the label was placed in one of those USPS damage bags and returned to me.
gurlcat
·7 months agoI have found that the stickiness of self-adhesive labels varies WILDLY, and same goes for the "stick-ability" of various cardboards. The really heavy duty boxes seem extra averse to being stuck-to. So if you combine one of those with not very sticky labels, and maybe a busy day where the seller was in a hurry, and blamo, the label winds up falling off.
gloryglorygifts
·7 months agoI like to think better of people, but these boards have opened up my eyes to the fraud that goes on. I've only had one item stolen at a post office, but that was an international sale, so eIS took care of it. Unfortunately, it happens.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@gloryglorygifts Well one thing we don't know is how "worthy" of stealing the item is. $5 keychain? $5,000 autographed baseball?
For that matter we don't know if there's something about the item that might make it more physically likely to 'escape' its box, or totally destroy it (liquids, for instance).
I asked the OP what it was and they didn't answer. I respect if they have their reasons not to, but unfortunately missing that info makes it impossible to guess if foul play might have been involved, so based on what little we do know, an innocent fallen-off label seems the most likely case. If that's true, then the box is sitting (naked) somewhere, with no way to know where to forward it or send it back to.
I'm not even sure if filing a missing package case would work.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoThe item was a Civil War document from Texas that relates to the abolition of slavery.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 Thank you! That eliminates any possibility of the item causing damage to the box. Also its being nearly weightless makes it extremely unlikely to evoke postal worker curiosity and opening of the box.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoThe item was fragile so I used some stiff backing and shipped it in a pretty long box so it weighed over a pound.
gloryglorygifts
·7 months agoWell that's something only the OP knows. Just a suggestion to them since they are the only ones that know it if is "worthy" or not. I wasn't talking about a missing mail claim; I was talking about an insurance claim, if it is worth it. Since he said it was shipped in a box, and the post office claims it was a label in a bag, something sounds off. It wouldn't hurt to look into it further if they can.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoI just received another message from this person and they said something like, the lack of communication from you is somewhat concerning once you receive the empty bag you need to do the right thing and refund me and opening a insurance case with the post office if you speak with the postmaster they'll be able to assist you with your claim and will likely refund you due to the state of the package, I'm assuming someone within the post office mishandled the package or took the item if you don't issue me a refund I'll assume you had something to do with the item not being present in the package and I'll have to act accordingly. Does anyone know if I should respond to this?
mamacassidy
·7 months agoI would say something like:
"I'm sorry for this inconvenience. The package should be returned to me in the next few days, and as soon as I receive it, I'll contact you."
I would be apologetic about the inconvenience, but I would not agree to anything until the package is returned and you've spoken with the post office that refused it.
Again, as I mentioned in my earlier post, it sounds like this person is telling the truth, but I would still want to get some kind of proof before I issue a return.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 I don't disagree with @mamacassidy 's idea to send them one LAST email before the package is returned, and I do like her "then I'll contact you" part because it's a commitment to something without promising money.
But like I said before, you do have the upper hand because they already filed an INR which is closed out by the tracking with Rejected right on it. Their "I'll have to act accordingly" is kind of funny actually. I'm empathizing with this person less and less, each time they write. 🤣
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoBut like I said before, you do have the upper hand because they already filed an INR which is closed out by the tracking with Rejected right on it. Their "I'll have to act accordingly" is kind of funny actually. I'm empathizing with this person less and less, each time they write.
I did put in the tracking number, however I did not receive any message saying the case is closed. Do I need to contact Ebay to close the case?
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 I can't remember if you win when it simply times out, or if you have to escalate it. Hopefully someone who knows will jump in and answer in the morning.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoI can't remember if you win when it simply times out, or if you have to escalate it. Hopefully someone who knows will jump in and answer in the morning.
I haven't received any answers about this I may need to contact Ebay about this. I also did not respond to the buyers previous message, and just today he sent me a message that said, "???" He didn't ask any questions in the previous message so I'm not sure what he wants me to respond to.
mamacassidy
·7 months agoIn my experiences with INR's, I've always asked ebay to step in and close it for me when I know the tracking shows in my favor. After a few days, a button will appear on the INR for you to click and ebay will close the case for you. I'd probably include a little message saying "there was attempted delivery and the package was refused" if you haven't already added that to the message box. The ebay bots will recognize these words.
As far as the buyer, he is obviously freaking out. I'd send him the message I suggested earlier, just to let him know that you are still listening and you're still working on it. I think deep down he knows he's going to get a refund, he just wants to know that you have not ghosted him.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoIn my experiences with INR's, I've always asked ebay to step in and close it for me when I know the tracking shows in my favor.
I clicked on the case and it is giving no option to close or escalate the case. Does this mean it's going to remain open until the package arrives back? Can I call Ebay to close the case.
stuff4divas
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 as i stated b4, ask them to give u the names, etc of the USPS employees so u can speak to them directly, and, as said, i guarantee they won't provide this info since this is a complete scam
gurlcat
·7 months ago@stuff4divas You wouldn't need any specific employees names, only the phone number for the buyer's town post office, which is findable on Google. Even someone at the 1-800 national customer service might be able to see notes on what happened.
The tracking SAYS the package was rejected and returned to sender. How could it be a scam? If anything, the seller is in the position to potentially scam the buyer, because RTS cancels the buyer's rights on eBay and they never got their item.
stuff4divas
·7 months ago@gurlcat i know, i'm being sarcastic to what the OP said the buyer said about 'being advised' by the USPS 'postmaster'
it is my 'personal opinion' that it is a scam since i don't think the 'postmaster' got involved
there have been plenty of posts here where buyers claim they 'received' 'empty' packages, so they then had the opportunity to refuse
i never heard of USPS refusing packages on behalf of an addressee, thereby taking that right away from the addressee
but thanx for your post
fern*wood
·7 months agoI'm a little confused as to what was refused by someone. The first post made it sound like it was just a bag with the label and no item inside. It wasn't clear to me that it was an empty box.
In my recent experience involving my label in a bag, the post office didn't deliver it to my buyer. They merely marked it RTS, but nothing about being refused.
stuff4divas
·7 months agoyea, OP said buyer messaged them > "they received a call from the postmaster saying they received a bag with only a shipping label in it and the item was not in the bag and asked if I could explain it."
i find it hard to believe that the postmaster would make such a call
i get packages being RTS, but this pkg was supposedly 'refused' by USPS, ah, weird story
gurlcat
·7 months agoYou have yet to explain what kind of "scam" you think this is. If there's literally no Delivered scan, the buyer obviously never got their hands on the item. So it's not like they opened the package, took the item and put a plastic bag back in their mailbox with RTS written on it the next day or whatever. You're also ignoring the people in this thread who say this label separation thing really happens, and I have no problem picturing it happening because some label brands really aren't very sticky.
"Weird story" does not automatically mean "scam." If you think this one does, then please explain what the buyer stands to gain from it, and HOW.
gone.c-33
·7 months agoThe package and the shipping label were separated somewhere along the way. A postal worker found the shipping label and put it in the official “We Care†usps bag for damaged/opened shipments and sent it on.
The package is now either lost in a dark corner under a conveyor belt or was found, but without a label ( @mozartbach1971 do you include anything inside your packages with your and/or the recipient’s address?), it will either end up in a pile of other undeliverable items, or a worker may open it up and if it does contain contact info, may one day make it back to OP.
Now when the lonely shipping label arrived at the destination PO, a worker assigned to sorting may have asked the Postmaster “Hey boss! Look at this! What do I do with this?†and the postmaster made the decision that it wasn’t worth sending out for delivery and returned it to sender.
No scam. The end.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@stuff4divas No wonder you think the story is fishy, if you think there is such a thing as "the USPS postmaster" and that's who the buyer claimed called them.
There is one USPS Postmaster General (Louis DeJoy) and there are thousands of USPS postmasters; that's all the "the" referred to by the buyer, their local postmaster. I have my postmaster's email address, and he has not only called me, he has come to my house and sat on the porch with me, to discuss ongoing problems I was having with a carrier years ago. They are not lofty figures, just managers. And any postal customer with an online USPS account has their phone number there, so it is not weird at all to receive a phone call from any USPS postmaster. I have even had calls from them in other states.
stuff4divas
·7 months ago@gurlcat sounds so special for u, not happening here in the BIG city of Chicago, boo hoo
an-36344
·7 months agoYes, David (Dave) Steiner.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@an-36344 Thank you, I forgot DeJoy resigned and was replaced.
slati_2013
·7 months agoHave you tried calling and talking to the Postmaster? Use the zipcode and google for post office. I call post offices once in a while and remarkably they were always able to answer my question and were aware of the item I was talking about.
This may put you mind at ease if the post office can confirm the story. Every once in a while strange things do indeed happen.
gurlcat
·7 months agoOkay, to anyone jumping to 'scam' conclusions or talking about how the buyer gave up their Money Back Guarantee, I have just one question: What if what the buyer described is exactly what happened, and they didn't know that Return To Sender would waive their MBG (because only us nerds would know something like that, come on you guys!).
I don't know how much money we're talking about here, but it would be totally wrong to deny this buyer's refund if they really never got their item, and I wouldn't blame them for ripping the OP a new one with their credit card and with feedback, if the OP takes advantage of a policy loophole. -Who put that label on the box? Not the buyer!
@mozartbach1971 I think it would be reasonable to tell the buyer you will decide what to do when this [whatever] comes back to you. Call that small town post office if you want. And if they affirm the buyer's story or if the returned item is an empty bag with your label in it like the buyer described, then they were not lying; they really didn't get the item they paid for. No need to file a missing package case when this one still has moving tracking scans, on its way back to you. And it is never the buyer's responsibility to file an insurance claim or even wait for the claim to be awarded to the seller, to get their refund. The protocol is to refund the buyer, THEN seek compensation for your loss, from the carrier you chose to do business with. That is not the buyer's burden in effort or time.
christworks
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 You do not need to get eBay involved with this. Listen to the advice you have been given.
Did you respond to the INR with the tracking number? You need to do this so it buys you time.
1) Contact the local post office for the buyer and speak to them about this. This is a quick and easy way to verify what the buyer has told you. You can also ask if the "bag" the label was in is one of the USPS bags that they put damaged contents in. It should be a clear plastic bag.
2) Whatever the circumstance, wait until you get the item back before you refund the buyer.
3) Message your buyer and inform them of eBay policy and that if an item is refused, you are not under any obligation to refund them. Make clear that once you get the parcel delivered back to you, you will make a final decision on whether to refund. You can tell them that as long as USPS honors your damage claim, you will refund them. If USPS damaged your item, there will be a note in the bag informing you of this. That then becomes your "evidence" to file a claim with USPS.
There is absolutely no reason to drag eBay into this. They do not want to be involved. They expect you and the buyer to work it out. You won't be able to trust anything a CSR tells you, so you'll be deciding with a foundation made of sand.
That local post office messed up, likely because it is a small post office and everybody knows everybody. They should have delivered whatever they had rather than refuse it. I do wonder if your buyer told them to refuse it.
fern*wood
·7 months agoI'm really surprised this is the advice others feel is the right thing to do. Getting the above message from a seller would infuriate me as a buyer. The only difference between the OP's and my situation was I got the plastic bag with my label back and I guess the OP hasn't gotten it back yet. I didn't think my buyer needed to be concerned with me trying to file an insurance claim or wait for their refund.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoI went ahead and updated the tracking number I then messaged the buyer saying since the package was refused, I will need to wait until the package arrives before I act. They then just sent me a message back saying what am I going to do with an empty bag and asked how did I go about packing the item. Should I respond?
gurlcat
·7 months agoI don't know why they would ask what they would do with an empty bag, if the empty bag is supposedly traveling back to you. Anyway you could just respond that you packed the item securely in a box, but it must have been damaged in transit, and there's nothing you can determine until you see what arrives back to you.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoI told them it was packed securely in a box and they asked if it was insured and I said it included $100 in Ground Advantage Insurance. They then asked what's going to happen when I receive the empty bag.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 Although I think you're going to end up owing them a refund, you technically have the upper hand since you responded to the INR, so you are not obliged to keep replying to their every message. I understand why they are nervous, but they're kinda acting like a little kid trying to make their parent promise something when it's just not realistic yet.
You've already told them you need to see what comes back before anything else, so they should get the implication of that. I would just stop messaging until then.
And I totally agree with @albertabrightalberta that not all hope is lost for you either. There is a very good chance you'll get an insurance award, but that's a few steps away from now. Hang in there, we're rooting for you.
stuff4divas
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971
first, do not refund until u receive the item back.
second, once a buyer refuses a package, they lose all ebay buyer protections.
third, i would call them out by asking to give u the names and phone numbers, etc so u can contact USPS and find out what is going on. I guarantee u, they will not do this.
tools*
·7 months agoNo, don't refund, ever. The package was refused, so you're good.
stainlessenginecovers
·7 months agoSome small towns, the PM can call you (I sell and do pickups all the time, they have my # and have called me before) so you could try to call that PO and ask for the PM and see if the story sounds familiar (worth a try?)
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoI just noticed a message in my mail box from the buyer he said something like the United State post office in..........called to notify me that they received an empty bag with a shipping label with my name and address, because the empty bag had no contents they decided to return it. This has never happened to me before and I was really hoping to get the item, Ebay recommended I open an item not received case because there was no contents in the bag, how did you go about packing the item? When you are able I think it would be best for you to refund me. You can contact my post office at........and ask for.........she'll explain everything to you, you can also contact Ebay and they'll explain the buyer money back guarantee policy with you.
mamacassidy
·7 months agoWell, based on that message, it does sound likely to be legit and not a scam. I'd still google the post office and make sure that phone number he gave you is an actual post office.
And LOL at the part about ebay explaining the money back guarantee. Because he clearly doesn't know that 'refused' counts as delivered, so it's a little condescending that they would tell an experienced seller they need the MBG explained to them when they don't even know what it says.
jbbowers12012
·7 months agoHi, Would be interested to see what the tracking tells us. Does it say "Arrived At P.O." then "Refused." or does it say "Out For Delivery" then "Refused." Never - Ever - Never have I heard of the P.O. refusing a package on behalf of the customer. Almost have to call **bleep** on this buyer. Jus' Sayin.'
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoIn one area it says arrived at post office, the next one says visible damage, the next one says refused, the next one says return to sender processes, and the final one says refused.
ccomic
·7 months agoSo if a buyer sees a package is crushed and refuses delivery instead of signing for it, they give up their right to a refund because they refused delivery? Then if they do sign for it, they give up their right to a refund because they signed for it?
jonathanbrightlight
·7 months agoThey don't give up their right to a refund by signing for it. They can simply open a return for Item Not As Described. Most sellers would not even require them to return anything in that case, but even if they do, the buyer can just ship back what they did receive.
ccomic
·7 months agoThat is good to know, thanks. I thought I read in another thread that signing for a package is essentially accepting the item as-is.
It still seems odd to me though. So as a seller, I could sell a $1000 item, then send the the buyer an empty box with signature required, being sure to write "empty box!" in large felt pen on all 6 sides, and if the buyer refuses to sign for it, I get to keep the $1000?
luckythewinner
·7 months agoSo if a buyer sees a package is crushed and refuses delivery instead of signing for it, they give up their right to a refund because they refused delivery?
Yes.
Then if they do sign for it, they give up their right to a refund because they signed for it?
No. They will lose an Item Not Received dispute because it was received. But they can still file a Not As Described case and get a refund.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 This is a real caper you've started! I am actually leaning the other way; I can't rule out 'scam' but I think it's more likely an honest buyer whose RTS was a tragic misfortune rather than a scammer miscalculation. If anything an honest buyer would be less likely to know about RTS voiding the MBG than a scammer would, also @christworks's theory about the totally destroyed package makes sense -they DO bag (crushed, soaked, leaking, etc.) packages like that, and maybe they didn't close this one well enough so the package escaped.
mozartbach1971 Would you be willing to say what the item was? That may be key here.
@albertabrightalberta What kind of scam would it be where the scammer doesn't get the item?
In any case, it will be interesting to see what actually gets delivered to the OP, and if it's an empty bag, I agree with christwork's idea of calling that post office to see what their records indicate.
christworks
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 I won't go so far as to say you are getting scammed, but I'm almost there.
In a narrow set of circumstances, the postmaster can refuse to deliver articles to the addressee. If a package has insufficient postage, for example, they do not have to deliver it, even with "postage due." Another example is if a package got damaged and the contents were lost. There could be some truth to what your buyer has told you.
What my gut is telling me is that your package got damaged along the way and USPS repacked the item in a plastic bag, maybe with or without your original packaging. They could have printed a label for it, but for one reason or another, the item never made it to the bag. I don't know. This is where I get lost trying to figure out what may have happened. It would really be some bad luck if the new packaging also got damaged and what was in it fell out.
The other thing is that I cannot imagine a postmaster calling an addressee and telling them they were refusing the package on their behalf. That is not the procedure. Is this a small-town post office?
I would not refund right now. Respond to the INR with the tracking number and state that tracking shows it was refused. Then, contact the post office that should have delivered that package. They can look on their internal system and see whether a carrier attempted delivery or whether it arrived to them damaged. You will at least have a better idea of whether the buyer has lied, which will help you make an informed decision when deciding whether to refund when you get back this "empty bag."
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoIt does appear to be a small-town post office. I think I'll contact Ebay to see if they will side with me if I escalate the case. I want to make sure I don't end up with a defect if they don't take my side. If they do, I'm thinking about contacting the buyer and telling them I could file a ground advantage insurance claim and also try to file a missing package request. Does this sound reasonable? I think I should have concerns they could turn around and file an item not described claim or do a bank dispute.
albertabrightalberta
·7 months agoWhen I first read your OP, I thought "scam." But after reading further and seeing the buyer's explanation of how it went and that she gave you the name and number of her p.o., I'm believing that it did happen.
But with that said, filing a missing mail request will be fruitless because the label has been removed from the package.
What you should do once you get the label back is:
1. Issue a refund because clearly, the buyer didn't get what she paid for and this is not a typical RTS case.
2. File an insurance claim. During their investigation, USPS will see that tracking shows damage and just the shipping label remains. If necessary, they can also review their GPS scans to see where the box and label got separated from each other.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 I don't understand either. LOL. Did you ship the item IN a bag? Was the label firmly stuck to the OUTSIDE of the bag? I can't picture what you wrote, at all. Like some kind of bag with a non-sticky paper label just sitting inside it?
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoI shipped the item in a box and I used an adhesive Business Source shipping label, it was firmly attached to the box. They just said the shipping label was in a bag, they did not give much details on it.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 That's bizarre, makes no sense. Guess maybe you'll know something(?) when "it" arrives back to you, whatever it is.
But why did you select my reply as Best Answer? 😄
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoWell to be honest my screen moved when I tried to click on something else and it hit best answer.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 You can un-select it I believe. And you might want to because there weren't many members active tonight, probably will be tomorrow in the daytime, so someone more knowledgeable may have some insights on your situation. But fewer people will even click if it already shows as 'Answered' in the news feed titles.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoCan you show me how to un-select it?
gurlcat
·7 months ago@mozartbach1971 Ha, I had to go find one of my own threads with a Best Answer because only the the thread's OP has control of this, and I couldn't remember how.
So, here's what you do: on that reply of mine^, click the little circled arrow in the top right corner, and select 'Not the best answer.'
iamalwaysright
·7 months agoWeird. You shipped the item in a box and the buyer claims they received (or about to receive) only your shipping label in a bag. Me being the literal type am assuming that the bag is clear then?
It might be too late for this but I woulda asked the buyer and would have loved to see a photo of this clear bag with a shipping label in it. I would think something as unusual as this should have a photo taken of it at some point. Perhaps it can give you some clues to what is going on. Was this bag even sealed? Because if not, how is it traveling thru the mail stream?
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoThe buyer did not give me much information, they just said they received a call from the postmaster saying they received an empty bag with a shipping label inside.
iamalwaysright
·7 months agoSounds vague. Like others have said, I’d wait until the package arrives back to me and assess. It’s too soon to act without much info. I’d tell the buyer this in a nice way. But yea, if the tracking truly says refused, I’d convince the buyer that it’s a good idea to file an INR just to cover yourself.
If you’re feeling antsy, you can contact the buyer’s local PO yourself and speak with their postmaster to verify the buyer’s claims.
albertabrightalberta
·7 months agoI think the buyer is trying to scam you but didn't do a good job at it. A "good" scammer would have kept the item and told you they refused it, hoping you'd bite and issue a refund.
But you lucked out because they refused it, thereby giving up their buyer protection.
I'm curious. What does the buyer's feedback/feedback left look like? Is there any indication that it's something they've done before?
At this point, if they open INR, input the tracking number showing refusal and you'll win the case. Although you don't owe them any refund, if you get your item back, you might want to issue a refund deducting any costs you incurred from it.
mozartbach1971
OP7 months agoThey actually already opened an item not received case. The buyer seems to have good feedback no problems. They are also a seller.
fern*wood
·7 months agoI recently had a label in a bag situation. Mine varied from yours, though, because the tracking showed my package was in their hometown and then switched to return to sender. The buyer contacted me & stated their address was correct, so I planned to resend. I waited to see what was returned to me but all I got was my label in a bag from USPS stating they were sorry the item was damaged and unable to be delivered. I bet my sticky label just came off and was separated from the package, so now I'm back to taping aggressively.
My buyer didn't open any case, but I sent them a photo of what I got back and I gave a full refund. I filed an insurance claim and was reimbursed the price of my item. I figured I would be turned down, but it was a low dollar item and they paid.
It sounds like the local post office handled it differently by delivering the label to your buyer rather than sending it back to you as mine was.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@fern*wood WOW that sounds like it could be very similar to what happened with the OP's package! And it's funny your reply came in right after the previous one - @jbbowers12012 So there's a case of the P.O. doing RTS on behalf of the recipient right there!
jbbowers12012
·7 months agoWell I guess that I have heard of it now. First time for everything. HA! HA! HA!
caldreamer
·7 months agoI don't believe for a minute that the postmaster called them. That is so ridiculous, how would USPS even know their phone number. Sounds like the customer "just changed their mind and refused delivery".
Normally, when customer "refuses delivery" you would wait until you "receive item back" and then refund (purchase price ONLY). If is up to you, if you want to give this customer a refund or provide tracking# to EBAY proving delivery (you will win this case, but customer may leave negative feedback).
When customer opens "item not received" case against you must provide EBAY with tracking# proving item was delivered and case will automatically close "in your favor". If you don't have proof of delivery, EBAY Automated System will force you to give to refund (purchase price + shipping).
USPS only covers "lost or damaged" shipments. USPS requires that you take packaging to post office to be examined. Also, you should be aware that USPS will rarely "pay for damages" they will just claim you packaged item poorly.
gurlcat
·7 months ago@caldreamer It's possible the buyer lied, but if they have a USPS account, their phone number is there. I've received a few calls from them, both local and from other states.
caldreamer
·7 months agoReally, that is interesting to know.
mamacassidy
·7 months agoFirst, with regard to the INR case, you can input tracking and you will be covered. Because "refused" basically counts as attempted delivery/ delivery.
Second, you should wait and see if you receive anything returned to you. Depending on what you get back, you can decide how to refund.
I personally would not refund through the INR, and I'd wait to see what gets returned to me through the mail. Then refund either the entire price or just the purchase price minus shipping and fees. The reason I say that is in my dealings with the post office, if a package is damaged, they put some kind of damaged sticker on it and deliver it anyway. I've never had anyone "refuse" a package on my behalf. So I'm not totally sure I am buying the story they are telling... Also, no postmaster has my phone number, so I'm wondering how they got that call???
If you don't receive your item back, file a claim with USPS.