Buyer is trying to scam with empty box claim then CHANGES claim to say the item was not as described
I sold a phone for about $160. I know its not alot but this is just a frustrating situation to be in and would like to seek some advice.
I sold a brand new Nextbit Robin phone and once it arrived, the seller opens up a return case and claims they received an empty box. This was through global shipping program from US to Australia so I know there may have been many hands on this parcel. So i went to check the tracking to see if somehow maybe it was tampered with during shipping, but the global shipping program tracking number does show 0.96lbs which is around the weight that I shipped it out at.
I reported the buyer to eBay and chose an option that said the buyer claimed they never received the item, that it was an empty box and wrote in the comments that the tracking shows it was a one pound box so it can't have been empty.
The next day I received a message from eBay that says this case has been put on hold for 10 days and to try to resolve it with the buyer. I also received a message from the buyer (their first message to me) that says after they opened the claim that the box was empty, they then found an old HTC phone "taped" at the bottom of the inside of the box that they didn't notice before, and attached photos of a phone i've never seen before as well as the NextBit Robin box with cord accessories missing, and a photo of the bottom of the box with a cardboard piece taped on it.
I have a photo prior to shipping and closing of the box - of the Nextbit Robin box wrapped in bubble wrap, in the slim box I used to ship, with the label on top that shows their address. I know this alone will not help me win this case, but the box i shipped it in is so thin that it was not possible to attach a phone at the bottom of the box WITH the NextBit robin box on top, let alone not notice that another phone was at the bottom....
I had considered that maybe it was tampered during shipping but now I am 99% sure they are scamming me as no one would not notice a phone bulge taped at the bottom of a already very small box.
I am wondering if there is anything I can do. I am assuming they tried to do the empty box scam, and after eBay reached out to them about the weight, they then changed their mind and said it was actually 'item not described' and "found" a phone. I know I am probably going to lose this but would like to do everything I can.
I read that eBay sometimes makes buyers open a police report for empty box claims or if their item was tampered with and that is what the 10 day hold is to give the buyers time to do this. I am hoping this is the case so it makes the buyer have to go through extra hoops.
In the case that eBay sides with the buyer on the return, I am probably going to make them go through the hassle of a return. In this case, who has to pay for the return shipping? Will eBay make me do this as well? I will probably record myself opening the box to see what they end up sending just in case.
Is there anything I can do to get the buyer to take back their claim/'magically find the item' ? I read some people will tell the buyer that they will open up a mail claim for them to kind of scare them into taking back their false claim but I am not sure how I would begin to do that as they are in Australia.
I've also gone through the buyers feedback history and notice they leave a bit of negative/neutral feedbacks for sellers. Most recently this month they claimed another person sent them a phone and it was broken.
Can I do/provide/say anything to eBay or the Seller to possibly help my case? Thank you!
inhawaii
·3 years agoThanks for the update.
I'm glad it worked out for you.
sadmiux
OP3 years agoHi all,
I just wanted to provide an update in case someone in the same situation stumbles upon this post in the future.
I ended up disputing the bank chargeback with alot of evidence - included lots of pics and order of events.
The bank sided with the buyer.
HOWEVER, I called eBay and they gave me a full refund + dispute fee! Their reasoning was I did everything correctly and with providing all the photos during the dispute. So, even if the bank denies it, eBay may still side with you.
farmalljr
·3 years ago@dbfolks166mt when you write off a loss, you write off the whole thing. Not what your actual cost is. If someone steals a candy bar that retails for $2, they don't write off the $1 they paid, they write off $2. THAT is their actual loss.
When I write off a stolen item, I don't write off the $20 I paid plus the $10 shipping. I write off the sale price plus other costs. THAT is what your loss is.
You can figure whatever you want. I don't care.
Pitney bows is not the FFer, anymore than EIS, or pirate ship is. A FFer is a separate service a buyer pays for outside of eBay's system. They are not looked at the same. I the seller, am choosing the shipping service to the buyer. A FFer is receiving the package for the buyer, then forwarding it.
GSP does not cover INAD cases. This ended up being an INAD case. There is no paperwork eBay is going to ask a foreign buyer to fill out. No different than a US sale, the buyer doesn't have to cooperate in a damage claim. They can send it back to the seller instead of taking it to the Post Office. Except with a international sale with GSP, there is no label eBay can/will provide. The onus is on the seller. It sucks, but that's how it ends up working,
Now the OP has to deal with a chargeback, they are unlikely to win. The only thing they can hope for is eBay covers this. Otherwise, they will be out another $20.
sadmiux
OP3 years agoThank you for everyones insights!
Last night I decided to reply to the Buyer to let them know that it wasn't possible that I sent the wrong item and that it wasn't possible for a hidden phone to fit underneath the phone box in the thin box i sent. I said perhaps its a shipping issue and that eBay is investigating and that I will reach out to their local post office to investigate possible mail rifling (lol).
They responded to me that there are too many variables and that the investigation isn't going to come up with anything.
Within the hour I got a notification that they filed a payment dispute with their bank and the INAD case has been closed. I wonder if my message scared them, they couldn't even wait until eBay finished their investigation. Or maybe they didn't do their affidavit? I'm not sure.
The payment dispute reason they put is 'Box is different. With sticky tape in it. Different as described.'
I will challenge this dispute, this guy keeps changing his reasonings each time he files a different claim.
Return reason - empty box
Case reason - "found" a phone but it was the wrong phone
Dispute reason - box is different ??
So i hope I can convince their bank they are **bleep**'ing. I feel someone like this likely abuses chargebacks so at least this way, even if i lose, they will have some sort of consequence (even if its with their banking institution). It's not even about the money anymore, just the amount of **bleep** this guy is spewing, I feel like I can't let him get away with it.
farmalljr
·3 years agoIf the guy filed a chargeback with his CC provider, you are only going to have a VERY small opportunity to respond. You are VERY unlikely to win a chargeback case. You MAY get lucky enough for eBay to cover it, but I would not be holding my breath. In almost all cases, the seller loses a chargeback case. AND if you lose, you will probably be charged an additional $20 dispute fee.
sextons-sweet-deals
·3 years agoPhones are always high risk for international scammers.
If the buyer opened a case, this is your chance to share the communication thread of buyers first claim and then suddenly changing their claim again. Might even report the buyer at the same time with the exact information you submit in the open case.
I would even not the kind of feedback history this buyer likes to leave for sellers.
Good luck!
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoWell ebay should look at their buying history when they look at your case so that might help.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoMail fraud is a crime when sent to US address or international address. Require them to return the item now that they ‘found itâ€.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoYour potential scammer has made a mistake by claiming and empty box first then turning it into a not as described case. It’s really one of the other but cannot be both. If they initially state nothing in the box, then of geez I found this phone and now it is not as decribed. That is cow manure,
farmalljr
·3 years agoOh, and welcome to selling. You will find that learning lessons can be expensive and very frustrating.
farmalljr
·3 years agoThe simple answer, you are NOT covered for INAD cases. eBay will NOT provide your buyer a label. YOU will be expected to get them a label or send them money FOR a label. If you fail to do that, eBay will refund the buyer, and they'll get to keep the phone.
If you deny their request, you will also lost the phone AND the money.
If you send them money for a label, there is no garuntee they will send you anything, and they will probably also get a refund to boot.
eBay will not consider your photos as any type of proof. They are going to side with the buyer, period.
sadmiux
OP3 years agoThanks for the answer. I think you are correct 😓 I may just have to cut my losses.
Ebay just let me know that since its through the Global Shipping Program, they will be requiring the buyer to fill out an affidavit about what happened. If proven that the item was swapped/switched during the delivery, we will both be covered. Doubtful....
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoThanks for the answer. I think you are correct
I may just have to cut my losses.
Ebay just let me know that since its through the Global Shipping Program, they will be requiring the buyer to fill out an affidavit about what happened. If proven that the item was swapped/switched during the delivery, we will both be covered. Doubtful....
Actually the GSP which is operated by a world class logistics company Pitney Bowes has/is pretty good about standing behind their service. When I used the GSP I had one incident similar to this and either the GSP or eBay was the one that refunded the buyer out of their funds not mine.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoThe simple answer, you are NOT covered for INAD cases. eBay will NOT provide your buyer a label. YOU will be expected to get them a label or send them money FOR a label. If you fail to do that, eBay will refund the buyer, and they'll get to keep the phone. The situation is a bit different for items that are shipped through the GSP.
https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/shipping-items/setting-shipping-options/global-shipping-program?id=4646
If you deny their request, you will also lost the phone AND the money. People often make this statement and it is not correct. What you loose is the item, shipping cost and eBay fees. As the seller you never had possession of both the money and the phone.
If you send them money for a label, there is no garuntee they will send you anything, and they will probably also get a refund to boot. Again things are different for international sales especially those that go through the GSP.
eBay will not consider your photos as any type of proof. They are going to side with the buyer, period. Probably not in this case. This should be covered by the GSP if eBay does refund the buyer.
farmalljr
·3 years agoI don't know about you, but shipping is never free for me. I have not had a case where I shipped something where the cost was zero.
I guess that makes me out the item AND money.
I don't know about you, but the most expensive shipping has always been GSP, ounce for ounce.
I don't know about you, but in any INAD case of an international sale, you the seller are expected to provide a label or the funds for a label for a return. If you can't/don't, the case is closed in the buyer's favor. Been there, done that. GSP covers INR, not INAD cases. Pitney Bowes is not inspecting your item, they are just repacking it. Pitney Bowes is not in any part of the guarantee/money process, that's all eBay.
dbfolks166mt
·3 years agoI don't know about you, but shipping is never free for me. I have not had a case where I shipped something where the cost was zero. I too pay to ship items but I factor that cost into the item if I am using free shipping or the buyer pays it as part of the purchase when I use calculated or flat rate shipping. So in essence for me personally the cost is $0.
I guess that makes me out the item AND money. If you loose the case/claim you are not out both. What you are out is what you originally paid for the item, the shipping cost and the fees. You never had possession of the item and the money at the same time so you cannot loose both.
I don't know about you, but the most expensive shipping has always been GSP, ounce for ounce. Agree 100% and that is because the shipping cost is for two legs. The first is from the seller to the GSP shipping hub/center and the second is from the hub to the international buyer.
I don't know about you, but in any INAD case of an international sale, you the seller are expected to provide a label or the funds for a label for a return. If you can't/don't, the case is closed in the buyer's favor. Been there, done that. GSP covers INR, not INAD cases. Pitney Bowes is not inspecting your item, they are just repacking it. Pitney Bowes is not in any part of the guarantee/money process, that's all eBay.
Maybe. If you read this entire thread you will note that eBay is requiring the buyer to fill out and sign a document regarding what happened. There is a good probability that the seller is covered. The GSP is responsible for the international leg just as a freight forwarder would be and the buyers loose their MBG protection once the item has been delivered to the FF, or at least they are supposed to. In this case GSP and Pitney Bowes are the FF.
Benefits of the Global Shipping Program
Besides making your items available worldwide, there are a number of benefits to using the Global Shipping Program:
inhawaii
·3 years agoUnless you described it as a empty box, a empty box claim is "not as described".
sadmiux
OP3 years agoYes i think you are correct.
I was mistaking their 'empty box claim' when they tried to RETURN the item, with their 'item not described' case when they opened a CASE afterwards.
pjcdn2005
·3 years agoThe phone that sold on March 18th does show that it was shipped through the GSP but that does seem awfully fast for the buyer to have received it. Does tracking actually show that it was delivered in Australia?
Did the buyer originally open an item not received claim? They would have lost that claim if tracking shows the item has having been delivered so they really should have opened an item not as described claim in the first place anyway. It is possible that you could convince ebay that the box must have been tampered with at the gsp center or after it left there and that the gsp is responsible. If ebay agrees, the gsp will refund the buyer and not require a return.
sadmiux
OP3 years agoHello. The phone was sold on the 3/13 and delivered on 3/26 to Australia. Yes tracking shows it as delivered.
They first requested a return with the return reason as - Missing parts or pieces, and the description 'empty box received'.
Then they opened up a case (maybe after i reported them and said the box was not empty as the shipping shows .96lbs) and i received the eBay email that said - 'We appreciate you trying to work things out with the buyer. They've asked us to step in and help resolve their return request, so we're going to take a look at the details of their case and decide what the next steps should be.'
After further looking, it does show that the case they opened after the empty box return request is 'item not as described'.
When i reported them I think i chose the wrong option of them claiming it was not received, but should have chosen the option of the claiming it was not described.
ittybitnot
·3 years ago@sadmiux
Is this the item that sold on March 18th?
Please make sure you actually used the Global Shipping Program. EBay is getting rid of this program in favor of the new "EBay International Shipping" which is not to be confused with "eBay International Standard Delivery" which is another program altogether.
If it was indeed sold on the 18th, there has not been enough time for the buyer to get their "empty box".
sadmiux
OP3 years agoHi, thank you for your reply.
It was an item that sold on March 13, the tracking does show it was delivered on 3/26 in Australia. They opened the claim the day it was delivered.
I checked my emails and yes the item was sold through the Global Shipping Program.