Buyer claims item not as described when it clearly was
I recently sold a letter written by Thomas Edison. In the listing I CLEARLY stated that the letter was lamanated for protection. (Letter was lamenated personally by me nearly 20 years ago and remains in the exact condition it was in when lamenated it.) I CLEARLY posted photos so that the buyer would see that the letter was lamanated. However, once the buyer ecieved the letter, he decided it was not as described in the listiing and so he started a return. I have researched complaints and it seems like eBay ALWAYS sides with the buyer. eBay already sent the payment to my bank and it has been sitting there for several days LESS the 13% eBay takes. M
My question is : what should I expect to happen? Will eBay side with buyer and stiff me of 13%? Will eBay refund the buyer with the entire amount and NOT stiff me 13%? Will eBay side with me? This is outrageous.
spawnfan123
·2 years agoEbay usually sides with buyers 99% of the cases.
fanfareplayer
OP2 years agoWell, eBay resolved this after all and refunded me $93. I was right all along.!!!!! I do not roll over and die because someone tells me I should!!!! Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion.
albertabrightalberta
·2 years agoTo be honest, I'm angry that Ebay gave in to your whining. Those "goodwill refunds" cost the rest of us honorable sellers higher fees. (Someone has to pay for YOUR $93 credit and I resent being one of those who pays.) You were NOT "right all along!" You were wrong but pushed and prodded them into accommodating you.
You were told for 3 pages that you were wrong and should accept the return willingly or ebay would decide against against you, refund the buyer and retain the FVF they collected from you. They do that in order to encourage sellers to resolve their own disputes.
It really bothers me that we're in a climate that so few people are willing to listen, admit to and learn from mistakes and insist that everyone else is wrong and they're right. It's sad.
Had ebay retained that $93, maybe you'd have accepted that you erred, however unintentionally it may have been.
*stepping down from my soapbox*
fern*wood
·2 years agoIt isn't becoming to confuse getting your way with being "right all along".
fanfareplayer
OP2 years agoYour opinion......
fanfareplayer
OP2 years agoUpdate:
I relisted the letter with the description in ALL CAPS highlighting that the item was laminated and that if the potential buyer feels that lamination destroys the letter then DO NOT BID.
It took about 2 weeks. Got a buyer who was absolutely thrilled with the letter. I relisted at lower price than what I was originally asking. Buyer offered me $50 more so I took it. She was THRILLED to have it and clearly, she read the description, unlike the original buyer who put me through all of this. In the end, everything worked out. And to albertabrightalberta and fernwood, I WAS right. YOU were wrong. I won. As it should be. I don't roll over and play dead because you say I should.
To the rest of the community, thank you for your contributions.
jerseyboymusic
·2 years ago@fanfareplayer
Aside from the lamination discussion (which I am not an authority... if you, as a seller, "don't accept returns", it doesn't matter. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong, but a buyer, to get a free return (without paying return shipping) will just claim "not as described"
Best all around to set up a return policy where the buyer pays
cozycornertreasures01
·2 years agoYou need to watch Antiques Roadshow. So many ppl bring things to be appraised by leading authorities in the antiquities trade thinking they have a priceless item only to learn their well intended effort to clean, fix and yes preserve their items only made it near worthless or ruined.
A lot of ppl are giving you good advice, you should take it and move on.
We've all been there and learned as we go.
Good luck, I wish you much success for the future
luckythewinner
·2 years agoIf you accept the return ... you will be forced to refund and will lose the cost of shipping both ways. But your fees will be refunded (less 30 cents) and you will hopefully get the letter back.
If you do not accept the return, chances are very good that ... you will be forced to refund and will lose the cost of shipping. Your fees will not be refunded and you will not get the letter back.
fanfareplayer
OP2 years agoI got the letter back and eBay is screwing me out of the 13% commission that they told me OVER THE PHONE they would not do!!!!!!!1 I am OUTRAGED!!!!!! They are demanding payment of $704 when I only got paid $592 and II don't have enough in the bank to pay them!!! On top of that, when complained to a live agent on the phone, PEOPLE WERE LAUGHING AT ME IN THE BACK GROUND. I filed a dispute, but how do I avoid paying this 13% commmission???
itsjustasprain
·2 years agoWhen you refund the buyer payment after the item has been delivered back to you then Ebay refunds the Final Value Fees that they took out of the original payment. Therefore you should see that $592 goes back to the buyer from you and the other 13% goes back to the buyer from Ebay. (There might be a little rounding error in the numbers I am using here but that is the general idea.)
If you were to ignore the deadline for refunding after the item was returned - thus forcing Ebay to step in and refund the buyer themselves - then Ebay would keep their FVFs and come after you for the full $704 instead. From what I see in your later post it sounds like you refunded in time and so they did not ding you for that remaining 13%.
adkhighker
·2 years agoThat letter is the type of thing that I've had good luck with here long ago, but not anymore. Nowadays, when I find something as important as that, it goes straight to a reputable auction house that does in-house bidding as well as online bidding. When you get your letter back, you should consider consigning it to such a place, especially one that only accepts high quality consignments. You won't have to worry about scams or returns from buyers. If any buyer wins an item from their auction and tries to return it, they'll tell the buyer to pound salt.
fanfareplayer
OP2 years agoThank you all for your comments. I agree that I could have listed it more proficiently, and I agree that it is likely the idiot buyer failed to read the description which I did generate with AI and to which I also inserted the lamination notation. However, I think it is rediculous to say that lamination destroys the item. It makes absolutely no sense to me. The letter is in exactly the same condition today as it was when I laminated it 18 years ago and I am confident it will remain in that condition for decades to come. I wouldn't list it if I thought otherwise. But anyway, the return was forced by eBay. I spoke with a representative and she said the buyer will get a full refund even though I only got $592, so eBay pays that 13% difference I was told.
chapeau-noir
·2 years agoI hope that laminate has UV protection.
fern*wood
·2 years agoDid you read the linked article in post #12? It was quite eye opening.
If you handled the refund, then ebay will refund your fees. You lose them if ebay had to step in.
chapeau-noir
·2 years agoI meant to say that for NON-collectors, laminating may have seemed like a good idea.
lux.ra_14
·2 years agoYour intentions might have been good, but lamination is non-archival and non-reversible.
It was an original paper letter. That was the "exact condition" before you altered it. Now it's a letter in a sheet of thermoplastic that can't be removed and will likely do more harm than good in the long run. Blame yourself, not the buyer, and accept the return.
junkinabox
·2 years agoYour options :
-Accept the return.
-Send a label and once you receive it, refund in full. eBay will refund the fees.
-Refund the buyer now and eBay will refund the fees. You will not get the item back but do not have to pay return shipping.
-Or do nothing, eBay will refund the buyer and allow them to keep the item. You will most probably get a negative fb. eBay will keep all fees and give you a seller defect.
inhawaii
·2 years agoTreat his as if you were wrong and the seller is right.
That's how ebay will treat this.
Accept the return.
When the item is returned to you, refund the buyer.
Don't forget to block the buyer.
fashunu4eeuh
·2 years agoI am quite surprised that you were able to sell a laminated historical document for that much, or at all. Lamination destroys what it was meant to protect.
https://www.npr.org/2017/02/21/515410087/an-attempt-to-save-south-carolinas-historical-documents-is-destroying-them
fanfareplayer
OP2 years agoI strongly disagree that lamination destroys the product. It is designed to preserve a product and this particular letter is in exactly the same condition today as it was when I laminated it myself 18 years ago. There was no other way to preserve it. Paper continues to deteriorate. I don't get why people think the opposite. I am quite confident that this letter will be in exactly the same condition decades from now. Thanks for your reply.
lux.ra_14
·2 years agoThat puts you at odds with the Smithsonian, the National Archives, and every other public and private preservationist.
You irreversibly damaged and devalued your item by laminating it. You had a paper letter. Now it's a sheet of thermoplastic with the paper permanently adhered inside. From the preservation department at the University of Illinois:
"Over time however, it was discovered that lamination is in fact destructive. Not only does the application of high heat and pressure damage documents, laminate plastics will also "off-gas," causing a chemical reaction with materials sealed inside. Furthermore, the adhesives used in lamination are typically acidic and can thus adversely affect inks, causing them to bleed beyond their edges ("halo" effect) in printed and written material. Each of these factors cause and/or accelerate the deterioration of paper documents."
fanfareplayer
OP2 years agoThank you for your comment. There was no heat involved. It was a simple XYRON laminator purchased at Staples. The Smithsonian hasn't seen this letter or the laminating job. If they did they would eat their words. It makes absolutely no sense to me that they would say the item is destroyed. It is preserved.
Unavailable member
·2 years agoyou are spending a lot of energy trying to be right – rather than trying to get it right. Learn from your mistakes, move on. When we learn from our mistakes is when we start having far fewer of them.
fanfareplayer
OP2 years agoI don't roll over and die because someone says I should. The document is preserved. It will sell somewhere, some day to somebody. And if it doesn't, the world will not come to an end. This is my lone experience dealing in this sort of thing and it certainly will be my last. Thanks for all of your comments. The letter should be in my box today and I can put this behind me.
itsjustasprain
·2 years agoI think 'sealed' might be a better description.
That is true - whats done is done. Yes - someone will be happy to get it regardless. In future I would recommend not laminating anything regardless of condition: leave that for your buyer to decide because sealing it up in plastic will not improve its value.
I will sometimes point out in my selling description that the item is dirty or fragile if it is - and also explain that I would prefer to leave its cleaning or restoration to someone who knows how. I have not noticed any reduction in its selling ability as long as it is clearly photographed and described so that the buyer can clearly see what he is getting.
lux.ra_14
·2 years agoGlad it worked out, but I'm puzzled by your insistence that lamination was a good idea. No one should follow your lead. Did you read the link about South Carolina destroying its most historic documents with lamination? A misguided attempt at preservation, and they didn't do a homemade job with a machine from an office supply store.
Even cold lamination, which it seems you did, applies pressure and adhesive that permanently adheres the paper to the laminate. You had an original letter that Edison held in his own hands. Now you have a sheet of plastic, like a cheap restaurant menu, with only your fingerprints on it. That's not preservation.
sextons-sweet-deals
·2 years agoI think you're getting played! $699 sale! I just looked at other Thomas Edison signature listings. WOW!
I would reply to send back and after receiving, you will refund. See how that plays out.
Did you ever review this buyers' feedback profile?
Honestly, you should have entertained getting this graded, professionally framed, and sold elsewhere. Not laminated.
best of luck on this.
itsjustasprain
·2 years agoWhen you respond to the return request by refunding the buyer (either with or without requesting a return first) then Ebay returns their final value fees that they took out of the original payment. They DO keep those fees if the seller does nothing and the buyer has to ask Ebay to step in. For a $700 sale I am sure you do want to request the return and refund after you get it back.
A couple of other comments here: that description has a strong whiff of AI writing about it - to which you have apparently added a sentence or two. I would strongly suggest that you write your own description and maybe add some more details as well. There is no indication of how big the letter is and no detailing of the flaws even though the photos do show some.
I can see that it was very deteriorated and appears to have been practically falling apart so lamination might be a last-ditch effort to save it for the future. But I think the lamination should have been stated more clearly. In both the listing and here in the original post I am seeing the word misspelled as 'lamanated' and 'lamenated' where 'laminated' should have been used. As that is a term that some buyers may be looking for (if only to avoid it) it is important that it is spelled correctly.
Just take it back and send the refund as soon as you receive it. When relisting be sure to provide more written details on its condition (you are off to a good start with your photos) and avoid using AI for your text. Good luck.
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 years agoI strongly suspect that many potential buyers would not know what laminated means.
As a preservation technique, it was always questionable and anathema to all collectors today.
Take the return because you are likely to lose the claim and will have something rather than nothing.
chapeau-noir
·2 years agoI'm an old paper collector and laminating hurts my heart.
Yes - speaking as a collector, it has to be very, very clear. And I would absolutely take the return.
tobaccocardyahoo
·2 years agoFor anyone wondering how to protect such a document. The appropriate technique is probably to insert it in a folded mylar sheet.
I would probably insert that in a rigid vinyl protector as well.
I am a collector and dealer in ephemera, now that I don't require money to live on. I also worked in a major research library in my youth, which helped form my attitudes.
chapeau-noir
·2 years agoMylar works very well. I collect 14th through 18th century paper and for anything 15th century onward use folders with a mylar front and an archival paper back. For the 14th century paper I have it framed in archival glass - pre-Gutenberg with different inking styles.
mustang707
·2 years agoIf and when you get the letter back, when you relist it, I would suggest putting the word "laminated" in the title to avoid this situation in the future. Unfortunately, buyers don't read descriptions very well.
gator08041971
·2 years agoOr at all.
I mean if you shop using the mobile app, you don't even see the main description unless you scroll down and open description details. Otherwise, all you will ever see is the main title and a truncated condition box, if you used it. (I usually put the words See More Below) in that condition box. Or something.
But agree with everyone else. Its far easier on you to return it, refund, and move on. Its a PITA, but any other choice is only going to affect you worse.
albertabrightalberta
·2 years ago^^^^ This is exactly what I was going to say.
And make sure you spell "laminated" correctly.
I'm not a collector of historical documents but I would think that lamination would detract from the value. And according to what I found, that seems to be the case:
Plastic Laminating Of Old Documentation
lonebuck-books
·2 years agoAgreed. Buyers don't read descriptions so you have to put it in the title in hopes that they see it. Also, it looks like the bottom left corner is missing but only shows partially in one photo. I would add a close up of that just to make sure people have the opportunity of seeing it. As for laminating it, I'm not sure how you would do it with people not reading descriptions but just to at least try and cover yourself, make sure you say that it is something you laminated yourself and is not professionally put in a protective sleeve. For serious collectors, that is a huge deal. If your buyer was a serious collector and saw it was done with a home laminator, he will return it as it isn't something that can be reversed without damage to the document.
ittybitnot
·2 years agoHowever, once the buyer ecieved the letter, he decided it was not as described in the listiing and so he started a return.
@fanfareplayer
This is eBay, the the process is automated. For all intents and purposes, the only thing that matters is what the buyer chooses from the drop down menu when filing the claim. At that point, the item becomes what the buyer says it is. It need not be the truth, but at that time your description and photos no longer matter. They will never matter, and customer service is no longer allowed to intervene.
You either accept the return, and provide a return label (or money if an international sale) and hope you get YOUR item back
OR
Refund, and let the buyer keep the product for free.
If you do nothing, and eBay is 'asked to step in' by you or the buyer, eBay will often take the proceeds from the seller, award them a defect, and allow the buyer to have their money back and keep the item at no charge.
klhmdg
·2 years agoThese are your options -
Accept the return.
Send a label and once you receive it, refund in full.
eBay will refund the fees.
OR refund the buyer now and eBay will refund the fees.
You will not get the item back but dont have to pay shipping back to you.
OR do nothing, eBay will refund the buyer and allow them to keep the item.
You will most likely get a negative FB.
eBay will keep all fees AND give you a seller defect.
Seller defects are one of the easiest ways to be removed from ever selling on eBay again.
kensgiftshop
·2 years agoAccept the return, provide a shipping label, then refund once it's returned.
You'll pay the full refund, then Ebay will refund their fee's.
broto_64
·2 years agoI believe you will need to accept the return.