Buyer claims an item is missing from the package
Summary: sin-n-dex discussed a situation where a buyer claimed an item was missing from a shipment, although they were certain all items were sent. They decided to involve USPS for an investigation while withholding a refund until an insurance claim is processed. inhawaii and nyr134 provided advice on handling tricky transactions, suggesting refunds or assessing the buyer's reliability. sin-n-dex shared insights from their experience in fraud detection and mentioned that the buyer's account was subsequently closed, indicating possible prior issues. The discussion also touched on dealing with potential scam buyers and strategies for future transactions.
So in short, I shipped three items to a buyer, he's claiming he received two. The most obvious thing is, can I be sure I really shipped all three items? Actually yes, because my spidey senses work very well and I take extra measures on certain orders. If I wasn't sure that there were three items in the package I mailed, I wouldn't be posting here to ask what to do, I would just refund and accept I may have made a mistake (if I didn't know otherwise).
So when a buyer says something is missing? What do we do here? He wants a refund because the item isn't in the package.
What I've done so far is indicate that I was going to file a report with USPS so they can investigate, and explained his package was photographed several times enroute to his location so they would be able to determine when it was tampered with. Told him to keep all packaging because USPS was going to ask to see it. Blah blah blah, stuff about USPS investigating. I told him that because I was in Canada, I would go to my shipper and they would do the legwork to get an investigation going.
I'll have to wait a couple days if I hear anything back, but I suggested he check his package again before I start filing reports, and told him that I could refund him really quickly but will not do that until I file an insurance claim with my shipper and get all the necessary reports filed.
Am I missing anything? I did report the buyer, but there aren't many options to report when no proper SNAD has been filed, so far all I could do is report him for asking for a post sale discount (refund on a missing item that I know I packed).
There is though a chance the package was actually tampered with (although the buyer didn't mention this detail), in which case filing reports and insurance claims is totally the right thing to do.
I'm willing to bet money that after I told him of all the investigating that will be done that he goes away. He sent me pictures of all the packaging he received, which means he has the packaging, and can't tell me he tossed it and can't show it to USPS. He might leave a neg, but it's $100 item, and I don't just refund $100 without covering my bases as best as possible. Also the item was insured with my shipper, and I told him that.
C.
inhawaii
·1 week agoIf the buyer is now NARUd, ha can't file a INR or INAD can he?
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoNo, because the eBay account is closed. He can still go to his credit card company, but I'm safe from an eBay SNAD or bad feedback (which is good enough for me to move on). Should he do a chargeback I will deal with that as a new problem, if it happens. eBay sometimes deals with chargebacks and I just get notified something is going on but don't have to actually do anything. My only fear is that the chargeback is a SNAD situation, I heard those are nearly impossible to win.
Also since he bought 3 items, he may initiate 3 chargebacks (that would be my penance for getting him booted off eBay, I'm pretty sure my report on him did it, it wasn't long after that I noticed he was NARU). I'm also going to go so far as to say I think AI is reviewing these reports and can check stuff out very quickly, this might be a good thing for us sellers.
emuestate
·1 week ago · EditedMaybe he was already on double secret probation!
mam98031
·1 week agoThey may be able to file a Chargeback, but as @inhawaii said they can't file a claim in Ebay.
To file a Chargeback they had to pay with a credit card or debit card. While it is common to do this, there are those that do not use these methods of payments.
You reported the buyer for what exactly? Messaging you and telling you this stuff you describe is not a breach of any rule in Ebay. Certainly concerning, but at that point no rules were broken.
All you can do now is wait and see if they file a chargeback. I would collect and keep all info you can get on this buyer as it could come in handy if you have to fight this. Good luck!
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoIt wasn't much of a report, just that I shipped XYZ and buyer was seeking a partial refund under false pretenses.
That might not be an offence on eBay, but I was ticked off and had to start somewhere. The fact he was almost immediately booted suggests to me that he's a banned member and this was just a new account (he only had 1 FB score from me for his items). With AI able to do so much, it probably looked into my report to check him out, oh yeah, he's been banned before, and AI bans his current account.
I doubt my report contents caused the ban, but by doing a report I drew attention. AI can read our messages too, and there's more to this, but I was only focused on what the standard protocol is for this type of false claim. (Amateur scammers like to stay under the radar and don't like a bunch of investigative reports being filed, I thought by starting there to investigate his missing item was a good choice).
People keep asking me how I can be sure I didn't make a mistake in his order and really only ship 2 items. Let's just say I knew he was trouble after he bought the first item and it was flagged on my system to pay extra attention to (as in make sure the order is correct before sending). What I should have done was photographed the order, I know eBay won't look at it, but it's evidence that I didn't make a mistake (evidence to show the buyer, not eBay).
mam98031
·1 week agoYou are assuming that the buyer was booted because of your complaint and that likely isn't true. One complaint should not get any member booted, whether buyer or seller, unless it is totally egregious. It is likely there were other issues and maybe even more reports by other sellers. But your one report did not cause them to become NARU'd.
You have been a responsible seller for a very long time. I have no problem believing you have procedures in place to ensure you ship the right thing to your customers.
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoIt's a happy coincidence that he got booted when he did. It's entirely possible he did this to 5 other sellers yesterday and they all complained too. But my money is on "previously banned from eBay" as to why he got booted so fast.
People talk about having videos to record their packing, and the response is eBay will never look at this. While this is true, if there's a dispute with the customer and you have in house evidence, you can check your evidence to determine if the customer is possibly correct in their claim, or if they definitely are not and trying to scam for a refund/partial refund.
I'm going to take more measures in future when I have concerns about a buyer, but I have to deal with problems sometimes to come up with a good solution.
mam98031
·1 week agoI'm not sure that is time well spent. If this is the first time you have had this happen in over 43,000transactions, seems like it isn't a high risk for you at this time. But of course you have every right to do what you think is best for you.
mr_lincoln
·1 week ago · Edited@sin-n-dex
-What kind of items?
-What type of package?
This assumes you put all three items in the package.
-If the package was tampered with it would make sense that the criminal would take all the items and reseal the package and the Buyer would claim the pacakge was empty
-I assume the Buyer indicated which item was missing ... perhaps the most valuable?
-Buyers are not above making false claims to get some type of discount ... claiming 1 of 3 items was missing creates a situation where if you refund JUST that item then the Buyer may think you will at least be happy with getting paid for 2 of the items and they get their discount .
-If multiple sales to the same Buyer are regular for you I would suspect you have the process down pretty good and honest mistakes would be rare
-Has the Buyer replied to you since you advised them you will be starting an investigation with the carrier? I would "think" if one item WAS missing they would be rather pushy telling to do whatever you want but they want their money for the missing item. Or be telling you the package was NOT tampered with and the item was simply not incldued in the shipment.
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoAll three items were in the same package packed together. In some cases I can make mistakes, I try not to with multiple purchases because it's too easy to forget one thing when the buyer purchased 14 things (that's where I actually check the items off on the invoice, and double check the invoice before sealing the package).
Yes, the most valuable one is the one that was missing (I knew that even before looking at his photos of "evidence" of what he claims to have received).
This buyer caught my attention as a possible problem. (I can't really tell you how, I just notice when something is a little off, I'm used to dealing with people pulling scams at my day job).
He didn't reply, and became NARU sometime between my message to him and shortly after my post (I didn't know he was NARU when I posted, but I posted a reply below indicating he's NARU).
He can still go to his credit card company though, I'll worry about that when it happens.
lakefor94
·1 week ago@sin-n-dex well, you certainly had that one pegged.
It has been awhile and I always go with gut-feeling with those kind of buyers. At times, it is so obvious it will be a bad transaction. I make a habit out of not shooting myself in the foot.
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoIt's sometimes tough, a lot of times when I figure out a buyer is trouble, they already bought and paid for one item. It's happened every time with buyers that I've had trouble with, I wasn't able to get out of the sale because I had to ship at least one item to them.
I did have one low baller message me on an item (that was silver) that he wanted a 65% discount on. I told him no, he came back with an offer of a 60% discount. I decided to just ignore him then. What happens if you decide "this item has been sitting for a long time so the low ball offer is OK" is you then get another 20-25 low ball offers on other stuff, better stuff, and stuff you don't want to give a big discount on, then they get all mad at you that they can't combine shipping with other items because you're not accepting any other offers. (Parasitic behaviour).
C.
lakefor94
·1 week agoThe habitualistic can wear out their welcome with the CC issuers as well.
mr_lincoln
·1 week ago@lakefor94 Good point ...
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoThe guy who keeps trying to scam me after 13 years seems to still be doing chargebacks (a fellow seller got scammed by this guy and warned me, I was like "oh I know all about him", and then the fellow seller told me what happened with three chargebacks on three orders shipped in three separate packages over a 2 month period). The fellow seller got to keep his proceeds and the refund for the chargeback came out of eBay's pocket.
You'd be amazed at how coin dealers network to share information.
mr_lincoln
·1 week ago@sin-n-dex
I suspect you were not the only Seller who Reported them for something. Hopefully the CC dispute will never materialize.
I "get" your gut feeling comment and I am sure a lot of Sellers develop that over time.
lakefor94
·1 week agoIt is very hard to get NARU'd as a buyer on eBay. It takes some serious work by a buyer to accomplish that.
mr_lincoln
·1 week ago@lakefor94 Nice to know the system works to some degree ...
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoOh I'm sure I'm not the only one reporting him, but since he had one transaction with me on record (unless he had others where he didn't get FB), then I'm guessing he was previously banned on eBay and eBay linked the account to ban him again so quickly.
I knew the transaction was trouble, I just didn't say anything here because I didn't know what the trouble would be (I don't know all the scams), plus if he was honest and just a little weird as a buyer, I wouldn't want to say bad things in the forum based on my intuition.
nyr134
·1 week ago · Edited@sin-n-dex Do you have a sense of the buyer’s reliability? Has he bought from you before? Is he a long-time eBayer with plenty of feedbacks that indicate he would be unlikely to fabricate a story?
I am assuming that these are coins; did the packaging give the USPS crew an inkling that there’s valuable inside? Or do you make it seem like it contains a bag of gumdrops?
Edit: the above was written before I saw what you wrote about your suspicions.
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoThis was the first time he bought from me, but he bought three items in three orders. I work in a job that deals with white collar fraud on a regular basis, so I notice things other people don't notice (like when a transaction isn't entirely normal). That's why I paid attention to this transaction more than a regular transaction. Oh, the item was banknotes, I wrap them in a bubble mailer to make it puffy and stuff it into another mailer so you can't feel the shape of what's inside.
Anyway, this is moot... I was going to send the buyer another note with screenshots from my shipper (as though it's my proof of what was sent, even though I fill those details in myself), and it wouldn't let me send a message.
I clicked on his username and saw this:
He might go to his credit card tomorrow, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoJust an addendum, this situation happens to me when a buyer purchases something (usually a response to an offer), before they do something that will alert me to the fact that they will become a problem.
I didn't know for sure he'd be a problem, just that there was a good possibility, so I insured the package (which I only do to a freight forwarder, a suspicious buyer, or something very valuable that would be very painful to have to refund if it got lost).
I work for a company that audits financial documents and records to determine eligibility for disability benefits, and there is rampant fraud there. I see a lot, helps me notice when something isn't quite right. Those that I work with are experts and catch a lot, I push paper so I see a lot, but don't get to make any decisions on coverage.
inhawaii
·1 week agoI have no doubt you sent the right amount.
But the customer is always right.
I would offer a partial refund if you can agree on a amount.
-or-
Return for a full refund.
sin-n-dex
OP1 week agoThe three items were paid on separate invoices, so him filing a return would only be for the missing item (which makes no sense if there's nothing to return).
I'd be more than happy to refund if I wasn't sure, as I can make mistakes, but I was more careful on this one than usual because I anticipated a problem with this buyer, I just didn't know exactly what the problem was going to be, and couldn't cancel a sale based on suspicions.
Others have posted what they do with scam attempts (he hasn't filed a SNAD for the missing item), that's the information I'm looking for, to get the buyer to go away and not want to pursue this as it won't be in his best interest. Being in Canada I don't know what channels US sellers use when dealing with this. I know I report it to my shipper (if it actually happened), but I don't know much about the investigation process.