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Beyond frustrated with E Bays lax attitude with con artists.
Twice now buyers have been successful at manipulating the Ebay return/refund system. I sell mostly used audio equipment. I test all equipment by using it myself for while before selling.
In both cases the buyers came up with bogus reasons for return requests. One was a vintage tape deck that was in perfect order when shipped. Buyer was very vague when describing what exactly was malfunctioning and would not provide video , only pics which proved nothing.
In the other case the buyer requested a return/refund due to a pair of speakers not having the grills. My ad was clear about the speakers being sold as pictured.(without grills.)
In both cases I refused to refund, and sellers involved E Bay.
Its as if I my points were not even considered.
In both these cases fraudulent return AWBs' were presented to EBay, and I reported as much.
Again Im assuming EBay did no follow up because the awbs' presented were obviously counterfeit. One was for a different item and seller altogether.
EBay made zero effor to vet the validity of their claims or proof of their returns
Essentially I was robbed, and EBay helped.
kh-stanley1
·1 year agoHi everyone,
Due to the age of this thread, it has been closed to further replies. Please feel free to start a new thread HERE if you wish to continue to discuss this topic.
Thank you for understanding.
compscrap
·3 years agoyou say you refused to refund in both cases. does that mean the product was returned with the auto return policy ( or something like that) and after it was returned you refused to do the refund
OR
did you not accept the return and ebay forced the return?
those 2 things are very different.
and and AWB is an air way bill ( or so I think) which I believe means you are shipping this type of product internationally?
If the product was actually returned and it was the product you sold them then you have to refund the money. I know they are still wrong for corrupting the return process but if they get past that point then you must refund.
I sell a few hundred items a week, almost all parts, and get a lot of returns. And its costly and the fact that more than 9 out of 10 are because the buyer didn't know what they were doing makes it very frustrating. Especially if they make a false claim for the return in order to try to get their original shipping repaid. The buyer can falsely claim "not as described" and then the moment they are able to they petition ebay for the refund and because ebay does not give nearly enough time for sellers to settle returns that is often before I can even get to the return at my PO Box. It sucks.
that being said, your field of selling seems it would be ripe with more fraud than usual ( like I hear of electronics in general ) and you may want to reconsider selling internationally.
toomuchstuffagain35
·3 years agoI'm assuming Awb = TRACKING #S?
It's not good enough for ebay to just "accept" tracking numbers with no regard to whether they were actually tracking #s for a valid return address/weight/size etc.
Heck sometimes they'll even accept a fake tracking # for something that was shipped before it was ordered.
mam98031
·3 years agoIt is unlikely that Ebay even required the buyers to return the items.
elsiesgems
·1 year agoThe usps will
investigate and look at cameras where items “ dropped offâ€. Ask for where they dropped the items off.
mam98031
·3 years agoThe return policies options are as follows.
With option number 1, No Returns the seller can completely deny taking a return for a Buyer's Remorse Return Request, if the buyer properly filed the claim. Or if they want to they can accept the return and have the buyer pay the return shipping. If the seller so chooses they can withhold the original shipping if it was separately stated on the listing [not free shipping] when it is time to refund the buyer.
On options 2 & 3 the buyer is responsible for the return shipping on a Buyer's Remorse Return. Plus if the seller so chooses they can withhold the original shipping if it was separately stated on the listing [not free shipping] when it is time to refund the buyer. As of October 1st 2019, sellers that are TRS have some additional protections as well as they can issue partial refunds if they options 2 or 3 as their return policy.
On options 4 & 5 above, they are also known as Free Returns. If a seller that has either of those policies they will pay the return shipping even on a buyer's remorse return. A seller can withhold the original shipping value from the refund if the shipping was separately stated in the listing [not free shipping]. Also Seller’s offering options 4 or 5 have the ability to do partial refunds in certain cases if the item arrives back damaged, missing something or in a condition less than what it was sent to the buyer in, see the policy for more details, the link is below. In the cases where a deduction in the refund is taken due to damage or other authorized reasons for a partial refund, Ebay will protect the seller from negative or neutral feedback.
ALL OPTIONS [1, 2, 3, 4 and 5] are required to process SNAD claims without exception. Even if they are improperly filed and should have been a Buyer’s Remorse claim.
All return policies by sellers must meet or exceed what is stated in the Money Back Guarantee Policy!
14 day return policies are allowed in certain categories: Jewelry & Watches, Collectibles & Art, Cameras & Photo and Medical, Mobility & Disability Equipment.
For those with Free Return and/or TRS members with 30 day return policies, there are some added protection benefits, one of which is the ability to do a discounted refund under certain conditions.
inhawaii
·3 years agoSomeone who apparently did not read your listing description carefully and mistakenly bought the speakers not realizing they did not come with grilles ... why would you call them a "con artist"?
wjocol_d1utqxryv
OP3 years agoThe whole part where the items were never returned.
12345jamesstamps
·3 years agoHave to say "no returns" does not mean "no returns" here. If you change your returns to 14 days where buyer pays for returns this will maybe stop happening. I have not have a return yet after I did this.
Some buyers look for sellers with "no returns" with a somewhat small feedback score(newbies) and probably think the seller doesn't know what they are doing. I wonder how many buyers would actually go through the whole trouble of packing and shipping something back at their own expense.
lakefor94
·3 years agoIf you are drawing this many claims, you have a problem that resides in your shop.
Fix that.
stainlessenginecovers
·3 years agoYou sell USED electronics which are then packed and given to a shipper who then
THROWS in on a truck; THROWS it on a conveyor belt; THROWS it in a basket; THROWS it onto another conveyer belt where it's THROWN onto another truck and then hauled to an airport where it's THROWN in cart and then THROWN on a conveyor belt etc.etc.etc.
You get the picture?
The Condition on the item when you shipped it has NOTHING to do with the Condition of it when it arrives as well as like any 'used old item' can DIE at ANY moment.
To 'rely' on your own word about the condition is NOT how you sell and ship USED ELECTRONICS.
house*of*paws
·3 years agoHi @wjocol_d1utqxryv
I'm very sorry this happened ... but you appear to still be in the learning stage in selling. It would be unfortunate if you blame these problems on your buyers and eBay ... rather than learn from the bad experiences to become a better seller.
From the feedback you've received ... it appears that you are not describing your items in the details needed if you hope to avoid returns. You need to over-mention every little flaw ... especially things like missing grills and remotes. You cannot rely on photos to replace what you should be telling them in words.
wjocol_d1utqxryv
OP3 years agoIt sounds as if you didn't actually read what I wrote.
mam98031
·3 years agoI did and I responded in this post: https://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/Beyond-frustrated-with-E-Bays-lax-attitude-with-con-artists/m-p/33786294#M2221505
You have a misunderstanding as to how the return process works on Ebay. I get it that you think it should be handled the way you did it, but it simply is not on this site. We all have to abide by the rules. They are not going to make an exception for you.
You are a new seller that didn't take the time to actually find out how the process worked and assumed you knew what to do which didn't turn out very well for you. Ebay did not do anything wrong, they followed the policy, but you did not.
We all make mistakes. Especially as a new seller. You have received some excellent information on this thread. I hope you will learn from it and this problem is not likely to happen again for you.
wjocol_d1utqxryv
OP3 years agoWhat about the part where my item was never returned?
mam98031
·3 years agoIf you had followed the rules here on Ebay, they would have been returned. You assumed some things that did not apply and it cost you. I know you didn't do it on purpose and it is a common mistake of a new seller. I also understand you don't think it is fair, but the rules are there for a reason. They are for all of us to follow. Ebay is too big to allow multiple different rules for a situation.
I know you are upset and I don't blame you, I'd be upset too. But you need to take ownership of this mistake, learn from it, learn the policy so you don't repeat it and move on. You will be fine.
I've previously given you links that will really help you and they are things you should know intimately. But here are two that you should make sure you understand start to finish. You will likely have questions. So come on back and ask them so you can make sure you fully understand.
How to handle a Return Request
Money Back Guarantee [MBG]
It is very important to understand the MBG. It doesn't only contain protections for buyers, but some for sellers too.
inhawaii
·3 years agoEbay doesn't investigate or validate claims by the buyer or the seller.
The buyer is always right. Period.
You could advertise a blue widget.
Sell the blue widget.
Ship the blue widget.
If the seller receives it and files a not as described claim because "i thought it was red", the seller will win.
Sorry, that's just the way it is.
ittybitnot
·3 years agoIf the seller receives it and files a not as described claim because "i thought it was red", the seller will win.
Though I cannot speak for @inhawaii I would he/she means "buyer" ^^^^^^^^^
I would like to add, however, that if the buyer files a not as described claim because they got a blue widget, the seller will lose.
inhawaii
·3 years agoThanks for catching that.
Yeah I meant buyer.
ittybitnot
·3 years agoEBay made zero effor to vet the validity of their claims or proof of their returns
Essentially I was robbed, and EBay helped
@wjocol_d1utqxryv
Yes, you would be correct. The whole process is automated, and eBay CS will no longer help a seller, even if the complaint is something already mentioned and pictured in the listing. For example, you could be selling a toy wagon that is missing a wheel. You can say wheel missing in the title, condition box, and in your description. You can show 5 pictures of the missing wheel, and it won't matter a bit.
Buyer chooses a "not as described" reason from the dropdown menu and mentions wagon missing a wheel, and the seller is still TOAST. The rationale eBay gave at the time for this nonsense was, the "the buyer may be unsatisfied with something else about the 'wagon' so the claim will stand."
When a not as described reason is chosen by the buyer, it matters not what you showed or what you described. Nobody will even look at it anymore. It becomes whatever the buyer says it is, even if they are complaining the pink sweater they bought (from someone else) doesn't match their blue bra when you actually sold them a garden shovel.
There is no seller protection for "item not as described" claims on eBay. They don't have time or are willing to spend the resources anymore. You agree to become the victim of buyer fraud simply by using the site in that you agree that eBay decides all cases (and you are expected to suck it up). You get defects if you don't.
elsiesgems
·3 years agowhat if the item was authenticated by eBay? this buyer is claiming she started a return but accidentally cancelled it. now she has Disputed the item with PayPal as " not as described "
eBay authenticated it!! such a scam. I believe she will try and NOT return it or return a different diamond bracelet. I am done with high priced items here,
elsiesgems
·1 year agoAlways ask the buyer loads of questions to get the answers , in a chat. I keep having people
say ‘ not delivered ‘ and I tell them that now often carriers take photos of the delivery and they need to wait for an investigation. Normally the buyer ‘ finds the item was delivered’. Curious eh?
a lot of scams from buyers that do this. I ask them for pictures, pictures of the box, camera shots etc. All through chat then screen shot the answers
fashunu4eeuh
·1 year agoHi @elsiesgems
This thread is over a year old
and therefore will likely get removed, as is standard forum practice, to keep dialogue current. You might consider starting a new thread to encourage continued discourse on an interesting subject.
mam98031
·1 year ago@elsiesgems
This is an old thread that will be closed soon. Ebay has the best protection for sellers on INRs if you follow the rules.
surfsupsomewhere
·1 year agoWe do follow the rules! The protection of INR? I don’t understand
mam98031
·1 year ago@surfsupsomewhere
I didn't address you, so I have no idea of what your specific situation is. This is an OLD thread and will be closed anytime now by the moderators. You may want to start a new thread and give details about whatever issue you have.
bonjourami
·3 years agoWelcome to selling on Ebay in 2023.
mam98031
·3 years ago@bonjourami
This isn't a new problem for sellers to deal with. This started about October of 2018 when Ebay changed the return system into what they called Simplified Returns, kind of the same theory as Simplified Fees.
This has been a huge issue for many sellers for almost 5 years. Ebay or someone from Ebay often say they are working on improving the system. Yet 5 years later and we are in the exact same place.
kensgiftshop
·3 years agoYou might want to check the shipping on these speakers 125897200818 .
It shows they'll ship to me Priority Mail for $11.45.
If they are as big as the look, don't think USPS will ship them and not for $11.45.
wjocol_d1utqxryv
OP3 years agoI have tried pointing this out to ebay, and no response. I've written them off.
1tuna
·3 years ago"Its as if I my points were not even considered."
you nailed it good with that statement and its the truth
ebay sides with the buyers and any point you think you need to make is just for naught
this is just a generic case of return abuse
I am sorry you had to figure this out during a return
@wjocol_d1utqxryv
bodyarmorgirl
·3 years agoEbay treats Sellers like trash. Sorry you had to learn this the hard way.
mam98031
·3 years agoThe OP did not follow the rules which is why what happened to them did. If the seller had processed the claims the way they should have, they would not have found themselves in this pickle. Sometimes it just isn't Ebay's fault. Sellers are human and they make mistakes.
buyselljack2016
·3 years agoYou refuse. eBay steps in. You get "unresolved by seller" defects on your account. eBay career can end up being terminated.
soh.maryl
·3 years agoA situation like yours boils down to "he said, she said", and, if she is the buyer, eBay will almost always decide in her favor. If the buyer opens an item not as described case, your refusal to refund only prolongs the agony -- for you.
rugerskick
·3 years agoNot true. His description and photos show the speakers were without grills. Claiming an INAD when you get exactly what is described/shown is 100% abuse of the ebay return system and should not be allowed, because their complaint actually confirms exactly what the listing said they would receive. Their complaint actually nullifies their complaint.
lakefor94
·3 years agoNowhere in the description did the OP mention the speakers had no grills. He needed to mention that in bold. Should have mentioned that in the title and item specifics as well as a failsafe.
Pretty much screwed himself across the board.
wjocol_d1utqxryv
OP3 years agoThank you.
mam98031
·3 years agoWHERE? Not in the title. Not in the ISBs [item specific boxes]. Not in the description. The pics show there are no grills, but the seller never describes that anywhere in the listing. That as you know is no where near good enough. This is a rookie mistake. One likely many of us made at one point.
The other one, the OP thought the buyer should send them a video. There is no requirement that a buyer has to do that on any claim. Pics is the best we can get and that is a new requirement on return requests.
wjocol_d1utqxryv
OP3 years agoEverybody seems to be forgetting the biggest point where bogus return shipping info was presented.
mam98031
·3 years agoI don't think anyone has forgotten anything. This is more of a lack of knowledge on the subject that has created this problem. Assuming you know what would happen if you denied the claims is what caused this trouble for yourself.
I explained in post 18 what the various different Return Policies means on Ebay. So I hope you read through that carefully as it does affect you a great deal.
Since you denied the claims, the buyer then gets an option to have Ebay step in. When Ebay steps in, they likely will not have the buyer return the item since you have a no return policy, but then they do force the refund to the buyer from your money. To add to that, you get a defect for each claim you did this with for not resolving your claims. Those hurt the health of your selling account. On top of that, Ebay does not have to refund you fees because it was refunded. All of this is stated in the policy pages on the subject. Something you should know very intimately. When you assume you know how a policy works, that is likely when you are going to dig yourself into a corner.
house*of*paws
·3 years agoThat isn't the 'biggest point' ... since it came after you refused the return of an item that the buyer claimed was 'not as described'. You didn't describe what was missing. [At least two of the bad feedbacks left mention 'missing' items.]
A wise responder on these Boards once recommended:
Photos need to be taken as if there were no Description.
A Description needs to be written as if there were no photos.