SNAD abuse
And the party continues!
So, in my case, i have a buyer that filled a SNAD and didnt upload details of the real problem regarding recieved item or even photos.
Nothing!
I also contacted ebay agent via chat. Total waste of time since these are not neutral.
Just to see their reasoning, i asked to agent if its is acceptable that a buyer claims that the received item is not as described and no more info is shared with seller and with ebay.
The answer was "yes, is acceptable".
Bravo!
I told the agent. If so, try to open a business, sell items via post carrier, and after a buyer tells you that something happened with the item, you simple say: dont need to know what happened, please send it back at my expenses (and loose to the initial postage)!!
Ebay is great!!!
12345jamesstamps
·3 years agoInstead of doing "no returns"...do "returns but buyer pays for shipping". I am still waiting for my first return after I started doing that. I think its been years now with no returns...knock on wood!
Buyer doesn't have to take photos for you or even email you...and they usually don't. They just want a refund and keep item for free(since you take no returns).
I stopped calling or even doing via chat years ago.
kalondro
OP3 years agoA buyer that wants to return an item will always open a SNAD instead of using returns but buyer pays for shipping. Unlesse buyer is innocent. In my case, unfortunatelly, buyer is not innocent or naive.
buyselljack2016
·3 years agoWith returns accepted policy (switched from over 20 years of no returns accepted)................. my last 5 return request buyers have been "innocent ?" as all 5 were opened as "remorse" returns. The buyers paid the return shipping and were refunded purchase minus initial shipping. YMMV
kalondro
OP3 years agoLook, i also have naive buyers that ask for return. In that case i simply deny.
The problem that iam describing is another.
If you have an "artist" buyer, the fact of you accept returns or not is irrelevant.
The "artist" buyer knows if he changes ideas after shipped item its enough to open a SNAD to have free returns!
Iam talking about buyers that know how the system works.
Are you understanding??
buyselljack2016
·3 years agoOf course, I understand that, but the biggest point of your initial post seemed to be that you were irritated by the fact that the buyer was not required to provide details.
Any details that you get from a false INAD will be just that................. false.
You are tilting at windmills.
kalondro
OP3 years agoAnd iam also anoyed with that fact of the buyer wasnt required to provide more than a simple " incorrect item".
If its incorrect, how about say where is the incorrection? How about received less than the announced, or receveid X when y was expected??
Doesnt make sense ?
It makes so sense that in all the majority of after-sales process the part that sells wants to know more than an incorrect item was received!
kalondro
OP3 years agoI agree with "
Any details that you get from a false INAD will be just that................. false.
"
But at the same time if a buyer refuses to provide more info than the provided by "incorrect item" PLUS dont answer seller when seller in a polite way contacts buyer to ask what happened with the received goods, shouldnt this be evaluated by ebay as a signal of bad-will and therefore potential fraud?
That is why iam angry!
stainlessenginecovers
·3 years agoThat's the way it works and has for years. Only recently to some buyers have to upload a photo; but even if they photo is IDENTICAL to the item, you- the seller STILL get to pay for the return shipping. Again, just the way it works.
To avoid 'some' of the INAD's; simply allow returns (since it will be forced down your throat anyway); this will ONLY stop people 'in the know' from 'pushing' a return back and, of course, there are a few others that 'know' about the 'shipping' thing. Most don't, so most of the time, they pay the return.
kalondro
OP3 years agoMate, accepting returns wont solve anything.
Take a look, this buyer wants to return what he purchased because he changed his mind.
Now think, what is the best for him? Stating that he no longer requires the item, and paying return shipping OR stating that item is "incorrect" and have the chance of free return??
Think! A buyer that is fraudulent wont give a damm if i accept or not the return, what he cares is how to return without paying return fee!
And how is that accomplished? Simply: opening a SNAD! That means free return for him!
soh.maryl
·3 years agoPretty sure that is exactly what we all pointed out. It's eBay's sandbox, so eBay's rules.
In order to sell on eBay, a seller can either (a) accept the rules or (b) find another venue.
It's that simple. No one here is saying they agree with the rules, but they agree with the fact that sellers have to follow them.
kalondro
OP3 years agoOk, but if the rules (if you read user agreement) talk about "fraud" on buyer protection programm and at the same time we say "AMEN" to what is being applied at the real scenario, then ebay wont change nothing!
My goal is to share that this policy must be upgraded because its pretty good that we can read that ebay works on prevent fraud on SNAD and at the same time they continue to refuse to analyse certain patterns in SNAD process.
A buyer that dont share details on what happened in a purchase process is a signal of fraud.
And us, users, must show our disagreement with this.
Keep saying "these are the rules" wont reduce fraud on ebay.
Fraud will always happen, but closing eyes to these behaviours on buyers wont help.
stainlessenginecovers
·3 years agoThink! I've been here for 20+ years and know the system. 95% of the people that 'buy here' do NOT know the system.
Accepting Returns DOES work over NOT; since buyers that are IN the know, will use SNAD.
Also; having the buyer 'tell a story' as to 'why' they believe something is SNAD (as you state is required on 'other' sites) - for those that WANT to work the system, can EASILY come up with a story... and they WILL.
kalondro
OP3 years agoI do work with ebay since 2004 and have 10k of sales, so i do know how buyers handle this.
The context that iam explaining is for NOT NAIVE buyers.
I think that ebay teams should ask buyers a story (even if is fake).
Obviously that is my word against buyers word.
But if a buyer doesnt even want to give a story or doesnt reply to buyer or dont provide any kind of proof on a SNAD or NAD case, wouldnt this be a signal of fraud??
And why iam insisting on this lack of info? Because no sellers, that run independent business, would swallow , in after-sales contact, an simple i received incorrect! That doesnt exist except at ebay!
Failing to provide more details about a SNAD (asked by seller or by ebay) its a signal of fraud.
In Europe, if i purchase an item in internet, i do have the right to claim if item is SNAD or NAD but i have to justify why! No store would accept return (with free return costs ) if i fail to provide details.
And based on that basic principle i why i opened this "thread".
Why ebay dont analyse these patterns of fraud? Because i know exactly what i shipped and iam not a 2 days ago seller!
kalondro
OP3 years agoI dont disagree that, in case of SNAD, the cost of the shipping fee for return the faulty item is seller responsability.
I do agree with that. If seller shipped NAD item then he must pay for it.
What iam claiming here is that ebay its not sensible to suspect fraud on SNAD claims where:
1) buyer dont answer seller in private;
2) buyer dont answer in the request message center;
3)buyer simply states "incorrect item", with no specification of what happened (payed blue, received red, or, missing parts, or received brick!)
This kind of behaviour conducts, most likely, to buyer protection abuse!!
Again, this is not by "reurn postage" itself, no!
A think ebay should, in these cases, ask , in a mandatory way, what happened in concrete.
Otherwise this is a party!
Whenever a buyer feels remorse, lets open a SNAD to get free return!!
soh.maryl
·3 years agoPer eBay rules, a buyer who opens an item not as described case is not required to go into the details of exactly how the item is NAD.
And your paragraph beginning with "I told the agent . . ." is exactly the way eBay is set up. ALL sellers need to understand that before they begin to sell here.
kalondro
OP3 years agoOk, so if you try to sell an item and your buyer want to return it just because it changed his mind but instead of opening a regular return he opens a SNAD, being fraudulent, just to have a free return you will certainly understand. The motif here ( abusing a buyer protection program) is irrelevant for you, correct?
buyselljack2016
·3 years agoDoesn't matter what "we" think.
On eBay, it is what it is.
soh.mary is just stating the facts.
Most of us sellers are not "OK" with it, but know how it works.
soh.maryl
·3 years agoPretty sure I did not say the buyer protection program is irrelevant, either to me to anyone else.
My point was (since I did not make it clear) is that eBay's MBG for buyers does not require that the buyer offer a reason other than the item is NAD. Have no idea of the number, but there are probably quite a few SNAD cases where the item was perfectly fine as described, but the buyer knew he could get a prepaid return label as well as a total refund by using that reason.
200roses
·3 years agoI can relate, I bought three watches last week
2 came in way smaller than advertised
(usually smaller watches don't sell or sell for a much lower price)
and the 3rd was a totally different model and color
-one seller issued a return label
-another does not want to issue a return label
-I did not file the 3rd SNAD yet
What unscrupulous sellers,
I stopped using ebay for years and now I remember why!!
I paid to get nothing and a little gift of frustration in "return"
no pun intended!
soh.maryl
·3 years agoeBay's Money Back Guarantee is pretty good for buyers if used correctly and in a timely manner.
kalondro
OP3 years agoBut certainly you opened a claim and contacted the seller stating what was exactly the problem, right? My question is another: my buyer didnt even stated what was the problem.
Just opened the claim stating "incorrect item", with prior contact!
Is the reasonable??
If you purchase an item in a store, in e-commerce, its reasonable to not provide photos or text regarding with issue??
200roses
·3 years agoI empathise with you and agree 100%.
And I understand why Ebay has to process things the way they do.
Dishonest sellers are not only driving buyers away, but also honest sellers
who have to suffer the wrath of irked customers
Unavailable member
·3 years agoIt is reasonable. If you sent something NAD, buyer has been inconvenienced enough - he owes nothing to you.
kalondro
OP3 years agoAnd if seller didnt sent NAD ???
kalondro
OP3 years agoIf i sent NAD! But in my case i didnt!
Try to purchase, out of ebay, on item, and after receiving it contact the online store and tell them that you received damaged or received incorrect and check if they wont ask you to provide photos or provide a brief text where you relate what happened!
Wich store, after you state that you receive incorrect, will pass the "provide details" ??
No store. Because is common sense that a seller requires to know what happened in detail.
A simple "incorrect item" received wont work!
eluvbud
·3 years agoTotally agree with this. eBay is the wild west pretty much - seller or buyer, you're on your own. Just had a return and only refunded about 20% of my original cost - apparently it costs $50 to ship a small box halfway across CONUS now.
simba6
·3 years agoWhen a SNAD is opened, all you can do is take it back or just refund and let them keep it for free. It's just a cost of doing business here. You have to pass a bit to all your prices to cover it.
When a buyer says SNAD, the seller is gonna be SAD.
kalondro
OP3 years agoUnfortunately that is correct... That is why sellers are giving up ebay. In other places, a buyer is required to, at least, explain whats happened. And that is common sense. If a buyer is not happy with an item he should justify why.
Nowadays, if i purchase in Amazon, FNAC, etc, etc, i cant tell them simply : "recieved incorrect".
Now, they will, of course, ask you, "ok, what you received instead?"
And if i dont provide answer they will be suspecting that iam hidding somthing.
I dont have problems with returns, i do have problems with fraudulent SNAD claims!