Seller tried to have me violate ebay rules and local safety laws and refuses refund / return.
A lot of bad things have been said about Ebay policies protecting the buyer too much.
Below the long story of last week, will show you why this is needed.
In this story the financial part is not that important, it is the acting and behavior of the Seller and the quality of his merchandise, his attempt to manipulation and work on your feelings trying to get you to do stupid things.
Lets begin at the beginning.
I ordered a battery for my old Nokia N8
From a seller in a european country bond by European postal laws and regulations
The Seller ships Li-ion batteries (hazard code UN3480) by normal mail in an unprotected easily tearing package that can easily be pierced as can the battery...., to other countries by airmail.
This is a violation of his own country postal safety regulations as well as those from the EU, but... this is his risk to take.
I would not do that, just imagine a plane catching fire and your battery was the cause, it is immoral, so many possible deaths and damage payments it will instantly bankrupt you and the rest of your family (if that would be possible) and hurt so many others.
Anyway, this would have been no problem if the ordered Li-ion battery would be a quality product, being as described at 1500mWh and packed well, but even then questionable.
After charging, discharging and charging several times again, I started the Energy pro App from Nokia (original Nokia labs app for this old N8 phone) and after having used the phone for 33h, making 2 calls and the remainder of the time being on standby & offline between 0:00 and 7:00, I got the alert that battery was low (10%).
The energy use monitoring app showed 723mAh used.
This is not even half of 1500mAh which was advertised.
This battery is obviously either faulty, re-wrapped old battery, bad quality, fake, in any case not new and not as described.
Now this would also not be so much of a problem, I contacted the seller and asked the seller for a replacement, while providing proof with screenshots of the app and photo's of the test setup that the battery was faulty.
He answered that the energy app from Nokia is crap.
It is not possible to measure a battery correctly if the battery is installed in a cell phone.
You need a special measuring instrument like "Curatio P4".
He asked me how we can solve the little problem?
I answered him politely that I do agree with him that the standard battery monitor from Nokia, installed / downloaded from the official store, was crap to begin with.
However, this is not that app I used, I used the official Nokia labs app, also used by Nokia technicians, Energy pro, this app can (could) not be downloaded without special access.
It also has an export function, running it now again in the background, only monitoring CPU utilization, voltage, current (amps) and the total used Wh. More info in next message.
I would be able to send him the exported report when it is finished, it will generate an Excel readable file (spreadsheet) for him to check.
However it was running for 13 hours and I expected the battery to be empty again after 33 hours, so this would take a while.
But I have to say that even when, as he said, the app is inaccurate, is has ± the same standby time as my 6 years old battery, this would indicate the battery is of bad origin.
He might have been scammed by his supplier.
More important:
As a response on his statement where he questions the accuracy of the measuring app, I would like to point out that the same app in the same phone did report the previous 6 year old battery (original Nokia) as 1100mAh when installed and charged 2 or 3 times, as it was mentioned in the accompanied specifications of that battery.
That would make me think it is pretty accurate as agreed contrary to the battery monitor app.
In addition to the current test, I would charge the battery next time by USB instead of the charge port and make use of my USB charge logger, to log the amount of charge it takes, this should be more than 1500mAh (equal will be close enough for me though).
I aksed him to please take also notice of the following:
Scientific study using the app, see link: https: www.researchgate.net/publication/224092718_On_the_impact_of_2G_and_3G_network_usage_for_mobile_phones%27_battery_life#pf3 and to please check page 2 last sentence stating that it is considered proven the app is reliable: "We have compared results obtained with the energy proï¬ler with the ones obtained with the Agilent 66319D. Figure 4 shows that the two plots match almost perfectly with each other proving that data given by the Nokia Energy Proï¬ler reliable."
So the seller answered me, after my very careful explanation and debunking of his flawed "opinion" about the measurement setup, that maybe their battery is a little bit faulty and they think their supplier send them old battery or add old cells in the battery. He aksed me how we can solve the little problem. Which is not a little problem for me.
Because he answered that the battery should be checked with a "Curatio P4", I assumed he might be having such equipment and sent him the following message:
Well I wonder if you have the means to check a battery before sending it, if that is possible I would like to have a good one of course. Otherwise I have little use for it. The received battery has the same capacity as the one I already had (6yr old one). We could wait for my current tests to run so I have a conclusive result at the end also after logging the charging from totally empty till full, it might get better after another full charge (I doubt it but... can give it a try).
OR you could send me a pre paid return label for registered post as Ebay requires (local post will not accept your packaging and) it needs to be sent with tracked small package post to Germany (see : https: web address of local postal company here...sending-lithium-batteries-20221010.pdf)
You can also just refund me the bad battery and I will bring it to recycling and order a new one somewhere else.
So basically you have 4 options:
1- send me a new good battery and a pre paid return label for this one.
2- send me a new good battery and I bring this one to recycling
3- refund me and send me a pre paid return label for this one
4- refund me and I bring this one to recycling.
I prefer to receive what I ordered but if you have no confidence in the product you receive from your supplier, I would advice to choose nr 3 or 4.
best regards.
Now the seller responds and here it becomes clear that either
1- he does not believe he sells crap
2-he thinks I am lying about the battery being bad and try to get even another new (crap) battery.
3-he does not want to take responsibility for sending his crap
4-he thinks he can trick me into making a mistake and forfeiting my rights under Ebay buyer protection.
In his answer he was thanking me for the message. He told they can send a new battery but then made the remark abut when I would not be happy with the new battery too? Then I would have two batteries. The insinuated that I already knew its to expensive to send prepaid return label. They offered a partial refund instead.
Well now this is not how a return works, I am willing to return the item and have no use for a crap maybe even dangerous battery.
So I answered him as a response on his offer for a partial refund, I would need to decline, as I said in a previous message, he have 4 options. I asked him to choose one of those.
So basically he has 4 options:
1- send me a new good battery and a pre paid return label for this one.
2- send me a new good battery and I bring this one to recycling
3- refund me and send me a pre paid return label for this one
4- refund me and I bring this one to recycling.
As I also said, that if he is not confident he can deliver what he advertises, I would suggest he choose option 3 or 4. I would test the battery the same way as I did now and I gave him enough information to show the used measuring process is viable and delivering reliable results. About that, when testing the next day it was empty after 24 hours (notification when 10% remains) at 673mAh (+10% = 740mAh) this is half of advertised, a battery is considered worn at 80% of its original design capacity. So I got an old one.
The seller evaded but I got hope on a solution in the end, he answered me to check how much it cost to send the battery back to his country on the chepeast way. They said they would pay for it."
Being helpful and understanding I investigated for him and answered him that I understand this situation sucks for both of us, for me because I had hoped to have found a good battery instead of all rubbish available on ebay, from a trustworthy EU seller.
For him it sucks because it basically is a complete loss, because sending back costs more than the initial value incl shipping.
But he is an entrepreneur and that comes with risks, this is one of them.
I am a consumer, using eBay to prevent problems when buying stuff that is not as advertised.
I sent him links with post info previously.
As said, the packaging he sent it in, is prohibited by his country’s AND mine.
Needs warning li-ion battery and material to prevent piercing, cheapest package post (registered) is for his country 19,90€.
I wrote that If he would not provide a pre paid label, I can only send it when they refund me AND reimburse the return postage BEFORE I send it back.
Otherwise we should follow EBAY procedure: he sends Ebay prepaid label with tracking ID, I deliver to post, he refunds. (or Ebay).
To be clear about the battery, next day I switched back to my old battery, the new one started to drain faster and faster, that day of testing again, I got empty message with 598mWh used and with 12% left.
It should go to the battery recycling, where it should have stayed.
He most likely has been scammed by his supplier, in any case bad old battery!
Now here it gets shady.... the seller is answering with a suggestion that I should break the law and eBay policy.
Seller sent the suggestion I can send the battery in letter.
He told that they send the battery in a letter too.
A letter is much cheaper than 19,90 Euro.
Aksed me to check it.
He explained that they need the battery to check it.
2 things are obvious:
1- that the seller does not want to spend 20$ for return shipping of a 10$ item
2- AND he does not trust me claiming the battery is faulty.
I understand , I would not want to send it for that money either, but what he is suggesting is illegal, dangerous and against policy, forfeiting my buyer protection from eBay.
So I answered him questioning his intent and if he is suggesting for me to break the law and violate the terms of service of both Ebay and the National postal services? I asked him to confirm."
I told him that I understand that for his company to be competitive on Ebay, he chooses to violate local postal laws and terms of service, but one cannot expect me to do the same: F.E. in case of an accident I will be liable for damages, I cannot and will not take that risk.
This is something no one can ask from me.
In general, all postal services around the world have restrictions on the sending of Li-ion batteries, very little countries allow sending like his does, neither does his own country.
I asked him to please use the normal EBAY return procedure and provide me with a prepaid return label and refund me my purchase, I told that I will not need a replacement anymore, I will buy Polarcell brand instead.
MaxPower is obviously a cheap scam knockoff.
I told him that I sense that he do not believe the battery is not as described, even with the given proof.
This is not a normal without hassle return anymore.
I told him that if he will not send me the return label and refund me, I will need to ask Ebay to decide the next day.
So I thought I put some pressure on it because the seller is clearly now making inappropriate suggestions for solving this issue.
The seller responded as if he had not read anything I wrote:
Seller sent me an answer again admitting it is a money issue for him saying that a return label from my country is to expensive.
He said he wrote this in some messages before.
He said that he will pay for sending back the battery, but they want to know how much it will cost to send the battery back on the cheapest way with a letter.
I already told the seller the prices of the local postal services by sending him a link so he knows, he is obviously stalling and possibly trying to scam me out of my refund.
With his suggestion, as said before, I would lose buyer protection, so I wrote him back referring to my previous messages (we are already messaging for a few days) .
So I told him again that I said in previous message, sending by letter is not possible without breaking the law, so I would not be doing that.
Sending it by registered (required by Ebay money back guarantee) airmail up to 100g to his country is 21,10€, up to 50g is 19,50€.
A small package needed to go by boat which has tracking, is priced between these two.
So either way it does not matter in a letter or package.
Price is almost the same, an unregistered letter is not allowed by Ebay because there will be no proof I really sent it.
Options:
1- Smallest available Package by boat to his country (with tracking) = 19,90€
2- Registered letter up to 50g by plane to his country (with tracking) = 19,50€ (but illegal)
3- Normal letter to his country = 3,50€ but forbidden by Ebay money back, because no proof of sending the letter.
Then thinking about that this had gone long enough now (a week long messaging every day). I decided to add another message to it and mention that I would ask Ebay to decide:
I explained to him that he kepy asking information I already gave to him in previous messages, the cheapest option to send back the battery that is allowed by Ebay money back (registered) = 19.50€
The cheapest overall option without tracking, without proof of sending it to him is 3,50€ (airmail), but it will most likely be returned to me as sender, by the Postal company, because it contains a Li-ion battery, I need to mark it as Li-ion by law.
I told him I felt we are running in circles here and I would ask Ebay to make a decision.
At this point I was getting irritated by the 500 characters limit of the return request message box on ebay so I switched to the normal messaging where I can get 2000.
I send a less friendly message to the seller, basically an attempt to calling him out
I confronted him again with the fact that he asked several times the lowest priced options to return the battery, which I told him several times: I only send it back with the lowest priced option of 3,50€ if he pays me back 3,50€ return shipping and the paid 12,35€ = 15,85€ in advance: refund the item and send 3,50€ to my bank, because sending it back with this cheapest option is unregistered mail and there will not be any proof I send it.
This violates the eBay money back guarantee requirement to send by registered mail, I will have no rights to claim back my money anymore when I do this.
The cheapest correct eBay procedure option is sending by registered (air) mail = 19,50€ but this is illegal for Li-ion batteries locally AND Germany.
The legal option is 19,90€ by sea package.
He could have done this online himself.
I attached screenshots of the prices.
I again told him that I totally understand why he not want to pay 19,90€ for returning a 9€ battery, this will be a loss for him, but that his your risk as an entrepreneur.
My risk as a consumer is covered by Ebay and EU law.
I have the right to receive what I ordered and when he sent me a battery that is: faulty / old / relabeled / fake / or for any other reason not as described, I have the right to receive my money back.
I asked him to refund me that day and told him that his cooperation would be reflected in my feedback (by Ebay procedure).
If I would not receive his refund (message of Paypal) that day, I would ask Ebay to make a decision on this issue for us both.
I explained that this was only because he did not trust me and my software, that the battery is faulty.
Because he told me in a message that he thinks it is too expensive to send back the battery, I advised him to note that if Ebay decides for him, Ebay can decide I need to send the battery back to him at his costs by the official way and show them the receipt = 22,90€ anyway (= outlet price, so I get official paper receipt) for me to get my return sending costs back.
I asked him after this again to refund me that day.
After I sent that message, the seller answered pretty quick that they never pay in advance because in the past they paid in advance but never received the product. They insinuated that their customer only wanta an item for free (meaning probably me).
My though was: Yes that is the risk, but why would the seller not take that risk if he wants the buyer to forfeit his buyer protection by returning an item without tracking with no proof for eBay he ever sent it, this is exactly the same.
Basically seller wants me to give him the opportunity to screw me but refuses my advance refund because than I could screw him.
This is measuring with two measures (or something like that).
So I told him exactly that. I told him that in the past I have sent items back to a seller, without tracking against Ebay policy, at the sellers request and the seller did not refund and Ebay asked for proof of sending, I did not have it and the seller got their item back and I lost my money... so there we have it, that is why nobody can ask me to send it without tracking.
I repeated that this is exactly the reason of why you should always follow Ebay policy, and Ebay policy says that I need to send with tracking, I will need a paper receipt from the kassa to scan and send to Ebay, so I need to go to the Postal outlet, this means (as he could see on the price list I sent him earlier) 22,90€ return sending cost.
I could do that right away, then I did not have a faulty useless piece of junk that I need to bring to problem recycle collection point and he would have his piece of junk back, but at the cost of total 3 times the value of the junk.
It seemed he would not agree to that so I suggested again that I would ask Ebay to decide, because this is the normal procedure when buyer and seller cannot get to an agreement.
I told him that by asking me to send it like he told me, he would want me to break the law and commit an offense, I told him that he wants me to return an item without tracking...and by doing so, he violates Ebay good practices!
I told him he would also also violate my local law by suggesting to break that same law.
I explained I see no other solution.
And just when I had enough and wanted to ask Ebay to step in, it did not work (the button in my return request to ask ebay to step in).
I thought there was a problem with the website.
But then I got a message from the seller to check the return request. they uploaded a return label.
So I went to check the return label and noticed it was for normal mail, I told the seller I would check it out with the post next day.
So I went to the postal office and offered the shipping, with the hazard sticker on it with UN number and the postal office refused the shipment (as I expected).
The postal office told me I need to send it by parcel service of DHL or UPS or FedEx / TNT.
However, because the return request procedure does not have an option to send messages and report the problem to Ebay , I sent another message to the seller and contacte Ebay support.
I sent a message to the seller saying that I had been at the postal office today but they refused the package.
I marked the package as required by law as Li-ion batteries with UN code 3480.
I called the Postal Safety Advisory and she told me that his country is not accepting Li-ion batteries in the normal mail.
I have asked now by email for confirmation of this in writing from the Postal Safety Advisor and waiting for the response.
As soon as I have received it I will forward it in Ebay messaging to him.
I told that I already informed him this is not possible, apparently something goes lost in the translations from English to his language because he seems not to understand.
I told him in his own language (which I also speak but not as well as English, which is also not my native language).
I explained also that our Postal services advised to send it by DHL or UPS, however this is not possible for a consumer in my country, only for companies.
I aksed him to provide a DHL or UPS shipping label and a drop off point address in my town?
I also gave him additional proof the battery is faulty, I reported that I charged it when it was at 3% and the total charge taken by the phone (so there is still loss in charging not accounted for) = 807mAh I pointed to the attached pictures, this means the battery is little more than half of it's design / advertised capacity. I advised him that he can also check the time stamp of the pictures to see there is no faking it. I explained I reset the battery monitor app and now it shows that the app thinks the battery can only be charged for 80%.
Another part of the report I explained to him was that It also seems the battery is very quickly getting less and less capacity, when I switch back to my original Nokia battery, it shows me a capacity of 1003mAh, this means my original, (second) more than 1000 hours used battery is better than his new one.
I asked him if he knows the original company MaxPower, does not exist anymore and they gave up their name rights? Everyone can use that name. I suggested that his supplier is scamming him.
I asked him to just admit it is crap he sold me and send me a courier return label or refund me right away.
I provided extra information to the seller to convince him his battery was crap (which is the truth) but he really does not believe it or he thinks I will not know what to do now the return is already accepted but by normal mail. I did not need to wait long because the Seller responded quite fast without offering a solution and repeating the same suggestion / trick , that proved not to work because the postal office just refused it, they did not read my reply and answered like a mantra.
The seller insisted in his answer that the shipment should be sent simply.
He litterlaly said that the post office in his country would not control the shipment.
He was totally ignoring the fact the local post did not even accept it, how would it ever get to his country then?
I was baffled by his response.
So I answered to him that I additionally have some proof for him that his country does not allow Li-ion batteries in normal mail, and instructed him to check the attached image from his post website, and to take good notice of the by me red marked circle (elips).
(I added several attachments to that message with proof)
I told him that because he already does business since 1999 on Ebay, I was sure he already knew this.
I aksed him to stop messing around and send the correct label, for either DHL or UPS courier service with a drop off point address for me to bring it to (or have it picked up from my home, his choice).
Or to refund me now.
The seller again quickly responded with only stating that he indeed knows.
At this point I contacted Ebay support again that asked me to provide proof the shipment would be refused. So... I send the same proof to Ebay as I did in my last message to the seller: the proof it was forbidden to send Li-ion batteries by normal mail in Germany as can be found on the German website, sent the image and a copy of the link to Ebay support.
I sent the seller another message to make sure that I feel he clearly does not understand that I cannot send it, I explaned again that the postal office does not accept it. His coutry’s post will maybe not check it, but my local Customs will, so if I send it without proof of doing so by dropping it in the mail box, it will be returned to me and I have to pay postal costs.
I explained that it will be returned by customs because it is clearly marked as Li-ion battery with the corresponding code UN 3480 on the sticker specially made for that, as is required by law and regulations including the EU regulations Nr. 272/2009 and Nr. 300/2008.
I pointed out that I made an attachment to the messgae of the sticker.
I again explained that It is against the law / safety regulation and against Ebay policy.
I felt like telling the same thing over and over again.
But I ket eplaining that it is also not accepted as by Ebay regulations to just drop it in the mailbox, their return label is from his country post, therefore no tracking is available within my country (basic domestic post tracking) and I will have no proof that I actually sent it and losing my right for my refund.
I confronted him with the fact that it is clear he is not going to send me a DHL prepaid courier label, this was al again an attempt to make me break ebay regulations.
I infomred him that I did contact Ebay to refund me my money and he can sort it out with Ebay.
I left negative feedback to the seller for being so difficult.
I contacted Ebay support again and asked them to check the messages and give me advice of what to do now.
Ebay support asked me to give it one more try and ask one more time for a refund, I told Ebay that I just did that but did not get a response yet.
She asked me to wait for this, and at that moment the seller replied that they thank me for the bad feedback but that they would now stop the communication with me.
I informed the lady in the chat from Ebay that I just got a refusal to cooperate from the seller and this case is now forwarded to the backend of Ebay customer support, they will decide.
Luckily there is always a credit card charge back option... I have solid proof the battery is faulty and I am not going to let this (manipulating ?) seller get the better of me, even not for only 10$.
This is the reason for those rules of Ebay......to prevent being taken advantage of by a malicious seller.
I left feedback and follow up feedback to this seller telling summerized that the battery was advertised as 1500mAh. When testing (after 3 charge / discharge cycles to initiate the batt.), useful capacity (until 10% battery warning) was only ±700mAh. This meant the real capacity of the battery was not even close to it's advertised capacity. Item is not as described (=relabeled OLD battery? = Same as my current 1021 day old batt). I mentioned that I contacted the seller for a return, but the seller is acting very difficult and refuses to send a correct return label. I mentioned also that I would would ask Ebay to step in.
After his refusal to communicate further I left the follow up feedback about how I felt about his refusal to solve the case after my initial negative feedback after 8 days of messaging and needing to repeat eaverything over and over again and him not willing to listen. That the seller wished not to communicte with me anymore
I am waiting for Ebay to decide now.
Personally I think the seller should be punished for trying to have me break all law and rules.
People like him do not belong on Ebay, selling junk and trying to lure the customer into a false sense of security which will rob them from their rights and possibly their money.
Morality of the story: Ebay rules and procedures / policy is there for a reason, to prevent unjust (financial) damage to customers........and sellers too, but sellers have a entrepreneurial risk of doing online business which is not more than fair.
If you cannot handle that risk, you have no place on Ebay as a seller.
This was my 2 cents for today.
kh-samyak
·7 months agoHi everyone,
Due to the age of this thread, it has been closed to further replies. Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to continue to discuss this topic.
Thank you for understanding.
kibble-net
·7 months agoToo long.
Didn't read.
mjohnellis
·7 months agoThis was more than your 2 cents, more like your 2 pounds. What you say about shipping products with Li Ion batteries is true in most counties. In the USA you can only use ground shipping with the appropriate hazard label attached. I have received numerous LI Ion batteries in a padded envelop with no warning label . I guess this will continue until there is a transportation disaster. The other problem as you pointed out is the difficulty mailing it back. I have never received a phone battery that lives up to the original. I think they are all junk.
jonathanbrightlight
·7 months ago@mjohnellis
This post is nearly 3 years old. I think the situation has been resolved.
krazzykats
·3 years agoPiece of advice, when it comes to my phone, I stay with brand new OEM batteries from a reputable seller of phone batteries.
And check out the seller's feedback for similar sales, not because it was the cheapest. Reputation matters.
ms.rodriguez*
·3 years agoYou win the longest post every written here. Now like the others told you, OPEN AN ITEM NOT DESCRIBED CASE. Do NOT respond to the seller. Chit-chat time is over. The seller MUST send you a return shipping label to return the item. Once you open the case, look for the date . The seller must send the label by that date. No label, you go back to the case and you ESCALATE the case (or ask Ebay to step in and help you.) Click that. In a short time , you will get the refund. Once you get the refund, wait a day or two incase the seller wants the item back and sends you a label. After that time (and you have your refund already) discard the battery wherever you discard used batteries.
buyselljack2016
·3 years agoOP did that.
By law, the buyer cannot use the label/service provided to return that item.
OP needs eBay CS assistance (and not the off-shore brand)
gone.c-33
·3 years agoI’m sorry, I appreciate that you spent time to craft your post but that is entirely too much information.
If an item does not match the listing description, no need for back and forth with the seller. Just open an item not as described dispute.
The seller has to send you a prepaid shipping label or the funds to pay for return shipping. I’m sure UPS or DHL offers lithium-ion battery friendly ground options.
Return the item, get you money back. Simple as pie.
ooes8yo7o8oo2y
OP3 years agoAs you can see in this process, that is exactly what I did
As you can see developing in the story, this is exactly what I did and it did not work out that way like you said
, the story is the actual report of what was communicated between me and the seller once this process you describe and suggested was started.
I have described in detail the process of manipulation and attempt of tricking me into forfeiting my rights by the seller as a warning for less experienced users.
That is why I believe the context is so important.
The fact that this is so lengthy is exactly to show the lengths and efforts some sellers put into their attempts to dodge a refund or return. So be warned.
soh.maryl
·3 years agoSorry -- have to confess I could not struggle through your entire post.
However, if this boils down to the fact that an item you received was not as described, all you needed to do was open an item not as described case. Have you read eBay's Money Back Guarantee for buyers?