Locked
Discussion interactions are currently paused.
Is there any seller protection for returns?
Summary: zandarmerio discusses concerns about eBay's seller protection in handling returns, arguing that evidence is hard to prove and disputes are often resolved in favor of buyers. They share experiences of selling over 400 items without issues, but now face difficulties with returns and fees. They suggest possibly offering free returns to mitigate problems but express frustration over the lack of resolution for reported issues. They advise accepting such risks as a business cost and focusing on future growth instead of disputes with dishonest buyers.
I am just after my first return in my several years of selling on eBay and the situation that happened is absurd.
What happened:
-We sell the buyer a 100% brand new and working product. We happen to be its manufacturer, so we have standard photo documentation showing the product's condition and operation at the time of shipment. The condition of the item at the time of shipment, showing at the same time that it works (i.e. lights up, this is the marker to display the green line):
-The buyer receives the product and believes it does not work. I provide the buyer with photos to confirm that the product was working when it was shipped. I am also trying to establish with the buyer how he connected the product, but the buyer does not answer my questions at all. All I receive from him are requests for a “return label†and a “refund.â€
-The buyer reports the return to eBay with the reason “Not working or defective.†We provide the buyer with a return label, at our expense.
-We receive the return shipment. We inspect the item, registering everything. It turns out that the item just works normally and is not defective. At the same time, the returned item bears clear signs of use beyond the standard inspection of the item - the label from the item torn off, damaged and then glued in another place, burn marks (!) on the metal case. Condition of the item upon return:
-I reported the problem to eBay, attached photos and video showing the condition of the item at the time of shipment and after return, and photos and video showing that the item works after return despite the buyer's claims that it does not work at all.
-eBay decision made in about 5 minutes (?) - buyer gets 100% refund (???).
-I filed an appeal, decision further upheld. I received information that the buyer reported a problem that the item does not work, so according to eBay's rules, we were the ones who had to embrace the shipment to him. The shipment in tracking has a status of delivered, so the buyer is to receive a refund.
-We continue to send emails to technical support, no change.
-I still get information that I can report the problem with the buyer if I think he abused the right of return and the matter will be investigated. I did so, without hearing back from eBay for a few days.
Some quotes from eBay support:
"eBay’s return process is designed in a way that when a buyer returns an item, they are entitled to get a refund."
"eBay doesn't have any physical contact with the item, we are not in the position to determine who caused the problem."
"Please understand that we have kept our original decision since the return tracking shows successful delivery."
"It is good to hear that the item has been successfully returned, and it was in the same condition in which you sent it." - lol of course it isn't, did anyone even look at the pictures we sent?
At the end of the day:
-We are left with a product whose condition can safely be described as “Item is damaged, scratched, defective, or requires service or repair.â€
-We paid for (international) shipping both ways.
-I see “Order earnings -EU €97.26†on the order page, because since we asked eBay to step in, we won't get a commission refund (???)
-The only thing I still lack to be 100% happy here is negative feedback from a buyer.
Is this how returns from the seller are standard? Is there anything else we can do about it? Do we simply have to factor such a risk into the cost of business? The buyer can simply destroy the product, and in the end we will still have to reimburse him 100% of the cost and still cover the shipping costs both ways?
Sellers, a question for you - how do you deal with such cases? What else can we do to avoid such unpleasantness in the future? For now, we are doing enough to send new and working goods and ship on time, but I can see that this is not enough.
Thank you for your help,
Tomasz
fmxmaster
·3 weeks agoeBay return policy has a huge lack! I made an international sale for a customized product. Buyer ordered a specific color in a specific shape, not a stocked item. Buyer claimed the product does not fit and in same time he sent photos showing a wrong installation. A return will explode the costs because of customs fees and taxes. eBay received proof photos that the buyer made a mistake with installation and does not want to cooperate but eBay still made a full refund to the buyer and he still have the product. This is an easy way for buyers to scam international sellers because there is not protection for the seller at all!
zandarmerio
OP1 year ago@kensgiftshop
OK, let's say I understand what you want to say, a photo is still not 100% sure proof. Both we and the buyer can lie. Now it's a matter of probability. Since we have 400+ items sold and no one has reported a “item doesn't work†or “item came used†problem before, it's likely that everything was OK this time too. Since we are the manufacturer of the item and can print ourselves another label for the product practically for free, we probably didn't send the customer the product in the condition it came back to us.
I'll turn the question around - what evidence do we have to collect to be able to prove for eBay that we are right? Because if we can't prove it in any way, then seller protection is a myth.
@pickapaper
You write that eBay doesn't have the manpower to handle disputes. Gee, we've sold several hundred items through eBay, paid probably a total of $10-15k in fees, and so honestly that's exactly what I expect - that any dispute will be handled.
If there is a problem in <1% of the transactions where we can't come to an agreement with the buyer, no matter if it's a problem reported by us or by the buyer, I would like such a dispute to be handled according to the facts. At the moment it's 100% right on the buyer's side by default, and we don't even have any effective argument to defend ourselves.
@lakefor94
My question in the subject line was obviously rhetorical 🙂 It should read “is there any WORKING seller protection for returnsâ€.
Actually, we do not offer free returns so we cannot deduct up to 50% after the return. The buyer simply got a full refund and we could not change anything.
As return rules we set a carbon copy of what we standardly use in my country and what is required by law here. Return shipping at the buyer's expense, the buyer gets a refund for the product plus the price of the cheapest available shipping (on eBay we happen to have free shipping so there is no issue). We give a 60-day return period for this, and all in all, no one has used it yet.
International shipping is quite expensive. Shipment of the product to the customer is about $30, return shipment another $30 plus about $15 for customs clearance and about half an hour of work to prepare the paperwork for customs clearance of the returned goods. Perhaps in fact the lesson from this situation is that we should set up free returns after all, because even though they are expensive, no one really benefits because we just produce a good product.
On the issue of reporting the buyer, of course I did it, but so what? I got a confirmation on May 29 (SR# 1-494315736975), I was supposed to get another email from the “dedicated team†and until today nothing more has happened.
I am interested in the processing of this return, not that the buyer's account will be blocked if he repeats his behavior several more times. With us, after all, he won't buy anything anymore anyway.
@bennotbill
Well, as the manufacturer of the item, who cares first and foremost about the reputation of high quality and reliability, I will not send the next buyer the item after the return, even if it would come back to us in perfect visual condition. This is already our internal decision, I don't expect to now deduct 50% from every return because I do. What I do expect is that if a buyer reports a problem that “the item doesn't work†and upon return it turns out that it does work after all, we will not be charged return shipping and eBay commissions in that situation.
There is a difference between
"the buyer returned the item at his own expense, because we give that right and he can do it up to 60 days"
and
"the buyer lied in the reason for the return, returned the item and further damaged it, and we were unfairly charged about $70 for return shipping and over $100 more in eBay fees"
A lesson for those reading this topic - seller protection does not work, you have no option to defend yourself. If there is a problem then just return the buyer's money, block it and don't bother, because it's simply a waste of time and nerves. Just include such risks in the cost of doing business and focus on developing your business, not on fighting with dishonest buyers 🙂
kensgiftshop
·1 year agoEbay has very little seller protection.
Ebay doesn't really care about your evidence, they care about what the buyer says.
Your 400+ other good sales and how long you've been selling don't mean anything to Ebay.
We all have to deal with bad returns and not much you can do about it.
lakefor94
·1 year ago@zandarmerio you have an excellent handle of the situation and process.
@zandarmerio wrote: "I am just after my first return in my several years of selling on eBay"
If you only have a return every once in awhile, you are in good shape. Carry on and best of luck with future sales.
bennotbill
·1 year agoAs you manufacturer the item at least you are in a position to refurbish it.
lakefor94
·1 year ago@zandarmerio you asked if there are any seller protections for returns. Here in the states, listed below are the seller protections I have.
A seller's main protection is being Above Standard rated and offering Free Returns or being a Top Rated Seller and just accepting 30 day returns. These sellers can do a 50% refund on items returned damaged or the buyer sends back something other than what the seller shipped. Savvy scammers tend to avoid these accounts.
The Item Not Received cases are the only other significant seller protection if you have tracking that shows delivery.
Here is some eBay documentation on the subject:
An item is returned after it was used or damaged by the buyer.
Sellers who are not Below Standard are eligible for this protection for listings that offer free returns.
If you accepted a buyer's return request but the item is returned in a different condition than it was originally sent:
You can deduct up to 50% from the refund to recover the lost value of the item. We'll automatically remove any related negative or neutral feedbackIf the buyer had requested the return because the item didn't match the listing, we won't count the return in your "Item not as described" rate in service metrics
Make sure you report the buyer. Then open in new window or tab and send the refund within 2 business days after receiving the item back. You can do this from the return request. If eBay steps in to help with the return at any stage, you'll no longer be able to deduct an amount from the buyer's refund.
If we're asked to step in after you've issued the refund, it won't be counted as a case closed without seller resolution. We'll keep the return open for up to 10 days while we work with the buyer to resolve their concerns, and you won't need to do anything.
https://www.ebay.com/sellercenter/selling/seller-protections
pickapaper
·1 year ago@zandarmerio
You have clear and concise photos of what you sent and what the buyer returned. However, eBay will not allow photos to be used in any decision they make. They have no way of knowing what you sent or what the buyer returned regardless of photos. For example, you show photos of a brand new item but they have no way of knowing that you actually sent a brand new item.
Please don't misunderstand, I personally believe you; I believe you sent a new item and the buyer returned a used item. But eBay doesn't see it that way. If a buyer complains, the buyer is always right. It isn't always fair but it's how eBay does it. With almost 2 Billion items listed at any given time, eBay does not have the knowledge, the ability, or the manpower to inspect every complaint they receive, so they have their Money Back Guarantee and that pretty much overrides everything else.
zandarmerio
OP1 year agoThat's right, I have heard many times that eBay as a rule takes the side of the buyer. We have had several disputes with buyers - for example, a shipment lost, but the buyer totally ignores communication with the carrier, or the buyer does not want to pay the customs duty. Each time, in fact, eBay's first decision (probably made by default) was in favor of the buyer, but after an appeal and presentation of dry facts, eBay always conceded us.
Here we did exactly the same and I am surprised by the final decision. Of course, I asked eBay to step in, because I just don't think we should refund the buyer 100% of the price of the item and we shouldn't have to pay for return shipping. You see pictures of the product we sent to the buyer, you see what the buyer returned to us, you see pictures of what the final result was. I don't think I need to add any comment here ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well tough, looks like when selling through eBay we just have to take such risks into account. We'll probably just raise the prices in our eBay listings and that's it. Anyway, thank you for your help 🙂
kensgiftshop
·1 year agoWe see a photo of the item you said you shipped to the buyer.
How does Ebay know that's the actual item you shipped, they never seen the item the buyer received?
gator08041971
·1 year ago@zandarmerio
Unfortunately, there isn't much that can be done. Buyers can be asshats sometimes, but eBay is buyer centric. Either you deal with it, or use a different platform. You can report the buyer at least. If they pull that card too many times it can go against them.
I have not been burnt that bad, but I have had to return items regardless if the item was actually defective or not.
Price of an item may limit me to what I will sell on the platform in some cases. After all, I don't want to sell an expensive item, then be out everything, so that is my choice. But this can happen with any item.
You did what you could, but in the end, its the luck of the draw.
@zandarmerio
I should add:
Never try to let eBay decide the fate of your return. I see they didn't refund you for your fees. That only happens if you did not voluntarily refund the buyer directly. If you leave the refund decision up to eBay, you will almost always end up losing anyway.
If you ever get a return request, always take care of it. Don't let eBay step in. That way at least you get your fees back.