Help - Buyer says they received a empty box in leu of a $400 item
The buyer with 0 feedback claims to have received an empty box. I know, I should have cancelled the order when I saw they had no feedback. I just didn't check at all, I thought eBay had buyer protection. I don't sell things as a business or to make money. I sell things to just get by right now.
I shipped it with UPS Ground and I have the Proof of Delivery with the weight listed.
I hope some more experienced sellers can offer some advice and experience on how to proceed. This is probably the last higher value item I will ever sell on eBay. If this buyer manages to scam me out of $400, I will not have a fun time in the coming weeks. This is basically my last $400
I contacted eBay as soon as this happened. They said they will back me up and they believe me and to wait until the 16th when I can ask eBay to step in.
Thank you in advance.
deosil111
·3 years agoThey’ll tell you not to sell anything on eBay that you can’t afford to lose. Most people can’t afford to lose anything, hence have nothing to sell on eBay. End of an era. Sad 😢
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoI'm not really a fan of the "don't sell anything you can't afford to lose" opinion. I get that it's usually high volume/low value sellers that say it, and it has some sad truth to it, but if they lost a good chunk of their inventory at the wrong time they would definitely be screwed as any random guy selling his stuff to pay bills. And honestly, that just makes eBay seem like a completely unsafe place altogether. And I'm not gonna sell anything then because it's like just giving it away. I'll give it to a donation center or family member then, not some random lying piece of garbage. I suppose it's just about luck I guess, and maybe cancelling orders from new or low feedback accounts.
michigancolor
·3 years agoThere's a solution to this. eBay needs to partner with someone like The UPS Store or FedEx (using FedEx Office.) The seller can pay a few extra dollars to ship an item for in-person pickup and inspection. A UPS Store / FedEx Office employee opens the package in front of the buyer, and the buyer must raise issues like it's an empty box or it's totally the wrong product at that time or they lose their ability to do so. You could do it with the post office in theory, but that would be a gigantic mess in practice. @kyle@ebay
kyle@ebay
Hey @michigancolor that's a great suggestion! I'll be glad to pass that along to the appropriate teams.
michigancolor
·3 years ago@kyle@ebay Thanks, 2 for 2 today! 🙂 P.S. They might think to use the authenticity team, which I'd be a bit nervous about. If eBay could document what's in the box there and reship it, that would be alright, but the second shipping fees might not make the whole thing worth it. Also, so many sellers are having issues with the authentication team that I'd be wary of using it if what they did was more than just document what's in the box. P.P.S. Sellers who used a partnership with UPS Store or FedEx Office could also choose to have inspected returns, to make sure a buyer wasn't sending back an empty box, the wrong product, etc. I guess it would really only make sense if they were used for the delivery as well, and they could verify if the same item given to the buyer was being sent back. They could weigh it before giving it to the customer at opening and take photos. Yeah, I know there's things buyers could do to get through this, but it would help. As a seller, I'd be fine with the same location the buyer picked up at doing the verification, but I guess another possibility would be for it to be sent to a location near me for me to pickup. I wouldn't like that as much.
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoI'd be willing to pay extra for this. I wonder how it compares to a signature delivery. Is the customer then responsible for having inspected the item upon receipt and ensuring that it's not an empty box?
jahood1984
·3 years agoIt's unfortunate eBay backed both the buyer in this case and many others, the buyer has likely already created a new account and is it doing it again. Even if they lose, they win.
monster-deals
·3 years agoOh dear.
That is most certainly not going to happen.
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years ago(Probably) Final update. I contacted eBay via Facebook, (Thank you @albertabrightalberta !!!! ) and once they responded and got authentication for my eBay account, an hour of watching the three dots go up and down, eBay actually decided to release the payout to me AND refund the buyer. That was not exactly the outcome I was expecting. They also admitted they usually don't usually accept screenshots as evidence but they made an exception probably because of how obvious it was, and they had to go to multiple teams to get this approved. They've closed the return case as well
If all of eBay's customer support was like this, I would be a much, much happier seller.
ms.rodriguez*
·3 years agoThat is good to hear. Make sure that you block that buyer.
rosemary6525
·3 years agoIze glad you got your $$$$$ back. If this was a watch/jewelry and thus NO SCREENSHOTS you be out $400 as obvious and blatant as this is.
Just shows how an average SELLER has NO SELLER PROTECTION and are 100% at the mercy of any scammer.
This is only going to GET WORSE in future. Ebay letting criminal keep $400 item for free is a reason why FEES are SO HIGH $10 item on here, the fees are about 17%
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoYeah I am not excited to sell anything else on here. It's crazy to me. Obviously, there is some kind of grey zone here where a seller could try to scam a buyer with the same concept. But these huge companies that have no soul and don't care that it's the most obvious case of fraud. It's why I was actually kindof surprised that eBay's social media thing actually gave a crap and did anything. It's a far far different experience than the live chat...
I really wish there were a different platform like this. There's Mercari but their support is even worse, somehow.
jahood1984
·3 years agoApprove the return, send shipping label through eBay and make the buyer send back an empty box. File a police report, a mail fraud case and preferably a police report in the buyers area. When you appeal the refund provide all that information including the tracking of the pods, eBay might courtesy refund you or "possibly" refund you and not the buyer but you need the legal paperwork
Id also let the buyer know your planning to file all these cases and provide the tracking of the pods, that might just "find" the contents.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoIn these empty box scams this is good advice. You need to message the buyer and let them know you will not tolerate this and you will take action against them if they makes false claims. All these actions need to be documented and sent to ebay.
Unavailable member
·3 years agoWhat type of case did the buyer open? Was it an Item Not Received? If the buyer did you should upload tracking # into the case to Prove delivery You should be fine.
DO NOT have eBay step in as it will back fire on you giving the buyer a refund.
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoHe opened a return with the reason of "missing parts or pieces" and the message was "empty box"
Also a new development...I'm still tracking the headphones on the Find My maps and they're at his house right now.
Plenty of screenshots have been saved
stephenmorgan
·3 years agoSo your Find My app has located the Headphones at their house. Wow, that is incredible.
I would not refund them anything and would be making a Police Report, USPS Report and a report to eBay.
albertabrightalberta
·3 years agoSend a private message to Ebay for business on facebook. Explain the situation and show the "find my" screenshots showing that he has the items.
https://www.facebook.com/eBayForBusiness
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoThank you for this information. I didn't really think about how a lot of businesses have a facebook page you can message but I'm doing this now and going to keep this in mind... I've been having a pretty "rough" to say the least, experience with live chat support.
I've talked to live chat support and they said to just wait until the grace period thing expires in a few days then get eBay involved but this is such a incredibly obvious case of fraud that I'm hoping they'll just throw this out the window, where it belongs. If I actually win this case I'll feel very lucky that a number of things lined up, but obviously, the biggest one being the Find My maps with the headphones at his house right now...
blueplanetvintage
·3 years agoCall the local police and report stolen. Share the locater details showing they are at their address.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoSend ebay any evidence you have regarding tracking showing delivered weight of box etc.
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoIf buyer claims the empty box scenerio you could try the last resort by messaging the buyer and telling them you have proof of the package weight and tracking showing delivered. You can also tell them you are starting a claim with the USPS to investigate the possibility of a tampered with item. Tell them the USPS postal inspector will require them to show evidence of tampering. In an instance with an inexperienced scammer on here they might back off .
albertabrightalberta
·3 years ago@cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
I notice several of your items are shipping from China.
Did this item ship from the US or from China?
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoI do some drop shipping on those items. Some goofy phone cases. The electronics like my headphones I sold ship from the US
rosemary6525
·3 years agoEbay WILL GIVE HIM his money back and you are out $400 IF you are a TOP RATED SELLER and OFFER FREE RETURNS you are entitled to a 50% refund. Yep this is how EBAY works. There is no claim with shipper. It is basically CRIMINAL I do not sell electronics on here as its just a mine field of idiots crooks scammers
lamber9347
·3 years agoTwo things for you to note for future reference....
#1- Electronics and mobile phones are the number one category for scammers to target. Looking at your listings that is mainly what you choose to focus on. You will have a target on your back as long as you continue to list electronics and mobile phones. Always remember you are selling online to perfect strangers in another part of the country on a platform which offers a money back guarantee to any buyer. Makes no difference if you are a small seller or a business.
#2- Zero feedback has nothing to do with anything. Anyone can be a scammer regardless of the number of feedbacks they have. Do not get preoccupied with that part, you have/had no way of knowing who your buyer is in advance.
momtoabeautifuldaughter
·3 years agoAdvice given on here is never sell something you can't afford to lose...
eBay will force you to refund this buyer
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoWhat should I do? What should I do in the future? Am I just f'd?
mtgraves7984
·3 years ago@cdyl_us_sdbectc8r... good questions, all.
1) If you don't want your Seller Metrics to suffer, the best way to handle it is to approve the Return. You can either request that the item be returned (at your expense) before issuing a full refund, or you can simply approve a full refund without a return. (Know that your buyer has said they received an empty box... so that's what you can expect back.) Bottom line: you'll be issuing a full refund either way... no matter what postage weight shows or what call-in C/S says.
2) In the (foreseeable) future, there is no other way to handle Returns, as the MBG reigns and eBay is buyer-centric.
3) Yeppers. But for what it's worth, all we sellers can empathize. Godspeed.
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoThanks for the tips I guess. I'm not super concerned about my metrics, I doubt I'll be selling much anymore if eBay actually gives this extremely obvious scammer his refund...
stephenmorgan
·3 years agoTwo this I have noticed reading these forums for several years is
If eBay steps in and makes the decision in favor of the buyer they may tell the buyer they do not have to return your item, you will get a defect and you will be charged transaction fees. However, if eBay made the decision, then their decision is appealable.
eBay has been known to overturn their decisions. If you can demonstrate that eBay, made the incorrect decision then they may reverse their decision. Sometimes a well-documented presentation of the facts will convince eBay to reverse their decision.
If you turned in the package to USPS and received a receipt with the weight this is helpful. If the item you received back is of a substantial weight difference this is helpful. If you made a Police and USPS report of the missing item this is helpful.
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoSo what you're saying is I should just refund the buyer then appeal it? That seems weird to me. Isn't that like me doing it involuntarily?
What would you do, if you were in my situation?
I have a growing pile of evidence. The headphones are AirPods Max, which I can track since I forgot to remove them from the "Find My" app; and "huge surprise", They're currently in the buyer's town, within a mile of where the shipping address is.... I can't disable them but I know where they are as we speak and I've taken many screenshots. I think this is quite a help because it serves to demonstrate that the package absolutely left my possession
I am increasingly determined to not let this go. But I agree. This is definitely the last expensive item I sell on eBay, at least without insurance..Additionally, I would very happily pay return shipping if it meant I'd get my headphones back and the buyer/scammer could have his money back. I know I will just pay 8$ to ship an empty box back to me though, I'm not sure what else to tell the buyer in that case.
Again thanks everyone for your time
stephenmorgan
·3 years agoNot exactly what I mean. If you agree to refund then the case is closed on eBay. You can not appeal your own decision. If eBay makes the decision for you to refund you can appeal their decision.
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoI suppose I'll keep that in mind. It makes sense to me that if you choose to refund them then there's no going back on that.
michigancolor
·3 years agoFYI, no carrier or third party insurance company is going to pay an insurance claim except in the following 2 scenarios: there's proof the package was given to the carrier (a real scan or dropoff receipt) and there's no delivery scan; or you claim the package is damaged, the buyer is willing to work with the carrier to let them inspect it, and the carrier agrees the shipment was packaged properly and admits fault for the damage.
They will not pay an insurance claim when a buyer claims they received an empty box, except in the extremely rare situation where the carrier noted or remembers delivering the box torn open and without weight or being empty. It's just not going to happen.
They will not pay an insurance claim when an item is damaged quite often, because they'll say you didn't follow their crazy rules on properly packaging an item because it would have made the box gigantic and cost a lot more. They won't pay if you have the buyer ship the item back, like the buyer and eBay are going to push you to do.
They will not pay an insurance claim when the buyer says they didn't receive an item, and there's a delivery scan, unless the carrier can look at GPS and see the driver misdelivered which is quite rare. Doesn't matter if the buyer "provides" video showing no carrier came by. You just let them deal with eBay, because a delivery scan means you completed your obligation.
kensgiftshop
·3 years agoYes
Don't sell expensive electronics online.
You have two options.
Refund the buyer without return.
Accept the return, pay return shipping and give a full refund when something is returned.
You don't want to wait for Ebay to step in, they already know what will happen.
rosemary6525
·3 years agoMeant to tell you to go to FB MARKETPLACE I sell ALL laptops, computers as meet up and CASH. There are NO fees. If you are in a metro area its 100 times better I have sold 8-9 laptops since December
vintagecraze50
·3 years agoIn the future if you cannot afford to loose the given amount your items are priced at do not sell them online. Large scale sellers deal with this all the time on here and they cover their losses with the higher volume of sales. Also folks with just a few items and new to the platform get more attention from these scammers anywhere online.
cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
OP3 years agoYeah.. I have the UPS Proof of Delivery, and now so does the 'buyer' and eBay. The PoD shows the package weight. Hopefully it helps.
This situation will definitely not repeat itself for me, regardless of outcome...
ms.rodriguez*
·3 years agoThey lied to you to get you off the phone. The buyer always wins these cases unfortunately. I believe you too. Don't get me wrong.
mtgraves7984
·3 years agoI thought eBay had buyer protection.
@cdyl_us_sdbectc8r
Oh, boy... they do. Your buyer is protected by the Money Back Guarantee. >> eBay Money Back Guarantee policy
ETA: You only have a couple of days to deal with a Return claim if the buyer has opened one. It's your call whether to approve it and send a return shipping label, or to refund without a return. eBay will side with your buyer on the 16th... not you.