China upping the tariff ante
"The U.S. side's threat to escalate tariffs against China is a mistake on top of a mistake, once again exposing the American side's blackmailing nature... if the United States insists on having its way, China will fight to the end." (https://www.reuters.com/world/china-says-it-will-never-accept-us-blackmail-escalated-tariff-threats-2025-04-08/)
I cannot help but wonder if those advising Mr. Trump withheld from him the fact that China is prepared to go toe-to-toe with the US on tariffs.
Or, perhaps more likely, if USG experts on China did not anticipate the reaction above from Beijing.
I recall reading something recently about how US scholarship on China has declined sharply in the last five years -- a consequence mostly of the severing of ties, because of COVID, between American academics and scientists and their Chinese counterparts.
And recall that CIA established a China Mission Center in late 2021 -- another indication (which, surprisingly, showed that CIA was acutely aware of the problem in the first place) that US access to China and to official Chinese thinking had declined, sharply.
I get the very strong sense that popular American perceptions of China are somewhat dated. I know that mine were, until quite recently, when I got to know and spent a good deal of time with a woman who had emigrated recently from China.
After all, China has learned (and stolen from) from the best. And with a professional cadre of Chinese diplomats and academics who have devoted their lives to studying the USA and know our country better than most Americans, I am now beginning to think that Mr. Trump might have bitten off more than he (and the rest of us taxpayers) can chew.
kh-phdan
·1 year agoHello everyone,
Please remember that it’s fine to disagree with others, but discussions should always remain courteous and respectful.
Thank you for your cooperation.
gurlcat
·1 year agoThank you.
tarotfindsandmore
·1 year agoYes, thank you. It's nice to see an even application of the community guidelines for a change.
chl_only
·1 year agoChina plans out 50 years
The U.S. (and most western countries) plan out two years max (at least to the next election)
If the U.S. wants to give up buying cheap Chinese made goods, they will cost more when made in the U.S.
Tariffs vs homegrown .... might be a wash?
Now what company will build plants in the U.S. if tariffs are temporary?
Unions are salivating at the thought of hundreds of unionized factories
tarotfindsandmore
·1 year agoWhy exactly do we want to preserve any kind of relationship with China? Why would we back down? If you look at the list of Asian nations that have already come back and asked for deals (Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Taiwan...), you will see they are the very countries China has been exploiting for additional cheap labor for the past couple of decades. Let's give them our business directly and help them grow.
Remember, China is not just taking advantage of us, they have many smaller, developing nations, firmly under their thumb. The utterly egregious human rights violations China has perpetrated, and continues to perpetrate, on these countries should be grounds enough for the U.S. to fight China to the bitter end.
We never backed down when the USSR threatened us, not sure why it would be a good idea to do so with a country that not only has zero respect for us, our goods, our laws, or values, but is actively harming every single developing nation on the globe as well.
As their primary consumer base, if China "loses" we win, and if China "wins" we win. What exactly do you think they will do to punish us? Cut off their endless supply of poisonous garbage? Inflict more damage on the developing countries we're already working with on trade deals? I really can't see how or why anyone who cares about humanity at all would have a problem with the U.S. fighting China to the bitter end.
https://babylonbee.com/news/china-retaliates-against-tariffs-by-putting-worse-fortunes-into-cookies?utm_source=The%20Babylon%20Bee%20Newsletter&utm_medium=email
bdgreatbuy
·1 year agois some ware we can find out the same info on ebay sellers us vs China
like amazon
bdgreatbuy
·1 year agoIn 2024, China-based sellers increased their market share to more than 50% on Amazon.
American sellers have dropped below 50% nearly two years ago. However, Chinese sellers have grown above 50% only recently, as there is a small percentage of sellers in other countries. Based on Marketplace Pulse research, Chinese sellers now represent more than 50% of the top sellers on Amazon.com, with U.S. sellers representing roughly 45% and the rest in the U.K., Canada, or other countries. China’s share of all active sellers is even higher. (Some international sellers incorporate in the U.S., so American sellers’ actual share is lower than 45%)
Amazon acknowledged the Chinese seller market share on its marketplace for the first time in the annual Form 10-K filing with the SEC in February 2024, calling it “significant.†However, it was significant years before Amazon called it out — their share has steadily increased for nearly a decade on Amazon.com in the U.S. and its other worldwide marketplaces.
fbusoni
OP1 year ago@tarotfindsandmore
I take it you saw the news today about the 90-day pause.
Thank heavens we live in a democracy. Congress is in an uproar because they are responsible for delivering to the American people. Mr. Trump bypassed Congress when he formulated his tariffs. Mr. Trump needs the support of Congress (and especially the House, where he has a razor thin majority) to pass his legislation.
(I wonder who it was that put these puzzle pieces together for him.)
Now I believe it is a matter of time before the next step -- some sort of negotiation with Beijing.
That's because fighting China to the bitter end is a waste of precious American resources. The Chinese can exert pressure on US dozen's of different ways. What would happen if the PRC blockaded Taiwan and made it impossible for Taiwan to export computer chips that the US airline industry depends on, to cite one example? Or decided to blockade the shipping lanes that link the Indian and Pacific Oceans? Would the US go to war? Would Congress ALLOW the US to go to war?
And believe me, I hear your concern about human rights. When I worked in the executive branch, I attended hundreds of interagency meetings in which US policy was discussed and formulated. Without exception, whenever a human rights issue was brought up, it was eclipsed -- completely -- by the political and economic imperatives that were at play in any given bilateral relationship with the US. No one in the US government cares about human rights, except insofar as we can wag our fingers and score propaganda points.
You ask: "Why exactly do we want to preserve any kind of relationship with China?" I don't think we have a choice, anymore than does China. China is a large, sophisticated industrial power with an advanced military and a nuclear weapons capability -- and one which is challenging US hegemony all over the globe.
The question, ultimately, comes down to how one manages that relationship. And declaring economic war historically has not been shown to be productive.
As for the smaller Asian nations you cite; they are puny, sit squarely in China's sphere of influence, and do not and will never be able to project power the same way that China does.
As for Moscow... our most recent capitulation to Russian pressure took place following the February 2022 invasion of Ukraine. The USA -- having assured Ukraine for 3 decades (following the collapse of the USSR) that we would have their back -- stood with its hands in its pockets as Russian forces attacked Kiev. And since then, the US has adamantly refused to give to Ukraine the sorts of offensive weapons it needs to deter Russian missile attacks -- on Ukrainian schools, hospitals, electric infrastructure and other civilian areas. The reason: US policy makers are terrified that should we aid Ukraine in such a manner, there will indeed be the potential for what Mr. Trump has justifiably described publicly as World War III.
Just as the USA has refused to put American troops on Ukrainian soil, so we will withhold direct, offensive US military support to Taiwan should China one day had enough of US meddling in cross strait relations.
That alone is reason to maintain a relationship with China, in my estimation.
tarotfindsandmore
·1 year agoI did see it, but one thing that stands out about it to my mind is that the 90-day pause excludes China.
https://www.cnbc.com/2025/04/09/trump-announces-90-day-tariff-pause-for-at-least-some-countries.html
I've cited a leftie source for the sake of our leftist friends here.
As to Moscow, I'm not referring to our current relationship with Russia so much as the Cold War, which we definitely did win in the end. We never buckled to the USSR and it no longer exists, much to Putin's chagrin.
I want to give proper consideration to your position and the points you've raised so I'm going to take a few moments to digest your very thoughtful post, but my initial response would be to say that, ultimately, China has a great deal more at stake than we do. Also, if we can establish stronger ties with those "puny" Asian countries, both they and we will benefit.
As it stands, only 13% (?, I maybe a bit off) of our imports come from China, which I believe can easily be handed off to other countries, e.g., India (like we're already seeing), or brought home. Over a third of the countries we do business with have already asked for the president's ear to discuss deals. More are likely to follow.
It will be a bumpy ride for a little bit to be sure, but something has to give. Our current arrangement with China has done more damage to our people and our economy than anyone is willing to admit. As a mother, and grandmother, this sickens me. I want my sons and their sons to be able to provide for their children the way that I have been able to provide for them.
On that note, I'm going to give some more thought to what you've said. I do appreciate a well-reasoned, thoughtful argument so I want to do it justice and see if I can get past my own reflexive "no" impulse.
fbusoni
OP1 year agoThanks… I was a Soviet analyst in the late 1970s and 1980s, before the collapse of the USSR. The reason we did not buckle was because there was no need to. They placed no ultimatums on us, and — other than the Cuban Missile Crisis, which the US instigated by putting nuclear missiles in Turkey — we placed no ultimatums on them. Rather, we competed politically and economically and had ongoing arms control talks to manage our relationship.
In fact, the US actually respected Moscow’s right to its unique perceptions of its security environment. Which is more than we did post-1991, when we foolishly pushed NATO right up to the Russian border.
That did not work, as evidenced by the invasion of Ukraine.
Nor will the current pressure on China work. China will find a way to wear us down … remember that we are a representative democracy with free speech, an independent judiciary, and all those other things totalitarian regimes find so inconvenient.
Nor are Americans accustomed to even the slightest sort of sacrifice — something that cannot be said for most of the rest of the world.
I also suspect that in the wake of the 90-day pause, a lot of US companies in China are now going to stay put. Mr. Trump’s behavior is mercurial and likely has convinced seasoned business owners that he will change his mind once again.
tarotfindsandmore
·1 year agoAgreed. Most of us believe there is no reason to buckle to China either.
The invasion of Ukraine is only evidence that the Russia no longer fears the U.S., and who can blame them after the bungling of the past administration.
I'm afraid I do not agree with you about buckling to China for one very simple reason. As I stated before, China has much more to lose than we do. What exactly do you think they're going to do? The more they tariff us, the less we buy from them, the weaker their own economy becomes. We are the number one importer of Chinese goods. If they ruin us, they ruin themselves. In essence, they will kill their own golden goose. I say let them try.
If they attempt to wage war, in the true sense of the word, it won't go well for them. For goodness sake, they couldn't even handle one stupid little virus properly, and let us not forget the great efficacy of the wonderful N-95 masks. Nevermind the fact that their entire population is aging out, so good luck putting together a military.
While you were analyzing the Soviet, I was watching multiple factories come into existence. Those factories ran for decades and fed/housed hundreds of Americans. All of this hoo hah about it taking too long, or being too big of an undertaking, is just a lot of noise. Americans will find a way. I'm not blind to the issues you raise, but my own life experience has shown me a very different perspective from the one you're sharing.
The only pressure we're putting on China is to get out of our house. Americans aren't interested in changing the Chinese way of life, they just want China out of their lives. China has been putting the pressure on us for decades, and it's blowing up in their faces as we speak. Again, if they destroy us, what exactly do you believe it will accomplish for them?
As the child of an immigrant from one of those countries you were analyzing, I can tell you Americans will not allow this nation to fall to the CCP. This is a nation of immigrants who have devoted their lives to 1) the pursuit of freedom and 2) the right to succeed.
selsa84
·1 year agoTariffs were paused only because of the market falling not because a third of the tariffed countries want trumps ear, if that's even true.
tarotfindsandmore
·1 year agoThey weren't paused with China. As to why the others were paused, that is pure speculation.
chl_only
·1 year agopoint of order (nonpartisan)
I can't say this enough, and will at every opportunity
U.S. senate and congress members are not bound by insider trading rules. The Stock Act needs someone to be looking and no one is looking. Left and right respect each others ....how shall I say? .... honour among thieves
With today's jump in the markets, who got richer?
and who will get richer?
tarotfindsandmore
·1 year agoNo one. The wind will blow the other way in the next five minutes and they'll all be "broke" again. The markets mean diddly to real people. They're nothing but an abstract representation of what might exist at any given moment. You can't eat stock, you wrap yourself up to stay warm in an annuity, bonds don't put a roof over your head. All the market does is tell you where you might have money, or not, at some point in the future.
gurlcat
·1 year agoExactly, and if it is true, how do we know what kind of "deals" any of them were willing or able to make -TRUMP REFUSED TO TAKE ANY OF THEIR CALLS. For all we know, some just wanted his ear to literally beg for mercy because the tariffs are going to absolutely kill their people, for no reason. This whole "they've all been ripping us off!" nonsense is disgusting. If tiny poor countries sell us more stuff than they buy from us, you think maybe it's because they can't afford to buy more from us?
Oh and by the way, Trump only paused the amounts OVER 10% on all the countries in the world including Penguin Island. -The 10% baseline tariff still remains on them all, and that's a lot more devastating number than one might think.
Oh and now apparently it's up to 125% on China. 🤣 What else can you call it at this point but a joke? How embarrassed his appointees and aides must be now, like how do they even look each other in the eye when he's not around?
tarotfindsandmore
·1 year agoWhere do you even come up with this stuff? How do you know he refused to take anyone's calls? Were you on the phone with him? Did he tell you that?
Which tiny poor countries are you talking about? I know for a fact Cambodia, Thailand, and Vietnam (three of the countries that jumped on the opportunity to negotiate deals right off the bat) would love to be able to get their hands on our goods more easily because I was just there for almost a month in early 2023. The 900% tariff they have on us means they can't.
You're still not understanding how the tariffs work. We do take their goods for whatever they ask, they just can't afford ours because of the various geopolitical arrangements they are subject to, primarily because of CHINA. These tariffs only make our goods more expensive for the people in those "tiny poor countries", they do not make their own goods more profitable for them. Every time one of these tiny poor countries tries to make a move own their on behalf, China steps in and turns off the tourism revenue. Tourism is the primary resource of revenue for all of those tiny poor countries so when China says 900% on U.S. imports, you bet your butt they say "yes sir!!"
gurlcat
·1 year agoI was not talking to you. Please do not reply to me. Your tone is very rude (telling me what to get through my head, etc.). Where do you think we are, Twitter?
We obviously disagree so just ignore my posts.