A better pic. Forgery is a bit strong but I understand what you are saying. I use it myself sometimes. To me a forgery has the intent to deceive as in applying false wear, acids, chemical mixtures, baking in an oven, whacking with a rock or metal pipe, etc. This piece seems to me to be following a traditional ikebana style and has a lot of honest wear from use. Is it Ming mark and period? No, I never had that thought . I do think it has 100+ years on it though.
A copy or reproduction is an honest homage to an artist or period. A forgery is when they sign a name/date that is knowingly incorrect, whether or not the addition of the mark affects value.
Therefore, in this case, forgery is the correct terminology.
Add to that the discrepancy between a Chinese mark/emperor attribution/year with the overtly Japanese style of the vessel and it seems almost guaranteed to be an attempt to lure a Western consumer.
How could it be anything other than a beautiful (and useful) forgery?
This thing, Xuande Furnace, has been forged and imitated for hundreds of years. In the past few decades, the Chinese people urgently need to make a fortune, and of course there will be more fakes.
Interesting, to me, is that I found others, but all with pinecone feet. The feet on yours are not in the shape of pinecones, are they? I have no thoughts on the significance, if any, of that. I just found it interesting. And I have no idea as to the origins of yours, or its age, or anything else, either; ditto, the ones linked to below. Just found myself comparing it to others that are nearly the same.
You are right, the feet on mine are folded pieces of bamboo. After seeing your links I'm headed back to the descriptor that it is a copy rather than a forgery. The word forgery has such a "clutching of pearls" ring to it as if some don't actually know what a forgery is but it sure sounds scary. Thanks for posting those links, it helps clear this up a bit.
You are right, the feet on mine are folded pieces of bamboo. After seeing your links I'm headed back to the descriptor that it is a copy rather than a forgery. The word forgery has such a "clutching of pearls" ring to it as if some don't actually know what a forgery is but it sure sounds scary. Thanks for posting those links, it helps clear this up a bit.
I think the use of the word "forgery" was just a translation thing. It has a specific meaning to you, in art and antiques, but broadly (in common use and in on-line translators) it can mean imitation, fake, copy, phony, reproduction, knock-off.
Could be but it got picked up instantly as a negative. And I agree, it's like when the word plastic is used in the arts, and they are talking about plaster ornamentation for walls and ceilings and the first thing people go to is toys.
downunder-61
·3 years agoIt is very eye catching
sonomabarn67
OP3 years agoA better pic. Forgery is a bit strong but I understand what you are saying. I use it myself sometimes. To me a forgery has the intent to deceive as in applying false wear, acids, chemical mixtures, baking in an oven, whacking with a rock or metal pipe, etc. This piece seems to me to be following a traditional ikebana style and has a lot of honest wear from use. Is it Ming mark and period? No, I never had that thought . I do think it has 100+ years on it though.
maeday76
·3 years agoA copy or reproduction is an honest homage to an artist or period. A forgery is when they sign a name/date that is knowingly incorrect, whether or not the addition of the mark affects value.
Therefore, in this case, forgery is the correct terminology.
Add to that the discrepancy between a Chinese mark/emperor attribution/year with the overtly Japanese style of the vessel and it seems almost guaranteed to be an attempt to lure a Western consumer.
How could it be anything other than a beautiful (and useful) forgery?
waxu_93
·3 years agoThis thing, Xuande Furnace, has been forged and imitated for hundreds of years. In the past few decades, the Chinese people urgently need to make a fortune, and of course there will be more fakes.
sonomabarn67
OP3 years agoThank you waxu. Very well, on Friday it will find a forever home in the recycle/garbage bin pickup.
waxu_93
·3 years ago万=10000，，，，，，😋
waxu_93
·3 years agoauction records by hkd.
1usd=7.8hkd😵
sonomabarn67
OP3 years agoSo this is Chinese and nit Japanese?
waxu_93
·3 years agoyes，IT is，，
maxine*j
·3 years agoInteresting, to me, is that I found others, but all with pinecone feet. The feet on yours are not in the shape of pinecones, are they? I have no thoughts on the significance, if any, of that. I just found it interesting. And I have no idea as to the origins of yours, or its age, or anything else, either; ditto, the ones linked to below. Just found myself comparing it to others that are nearly the same.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/293649716799
and
https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/japanese-bronze-flower-arrangement-tray-suiban-fo-1513-c-b7349f3897
and
https://www.etsy.com/listing/583907480/antique-japanese-bronze-suiban-tray-for?show_sold_out_detail=1&ref=nla_listing_details
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orphie1402
·3 years agoI found one like Sonomabarn's with what looks to be the same mark and a label/sticker. It has what looks like a small snail on one side:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/japanese-large-bronze-suiban-ikebana-3840173166
maxine*j
·3 years agoAnd, as on the ones I found, the mark is different than the one on Sonoma's. Beats me.
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sonomabarn67
OP3 years agoYou are right, the feet on mine are folded pieces of bamboo. After seeing your links I'm headed back to the descriptor that it is a copy rather than a forgery. The word forgery has such a "clutching of pearls" ring to it as if some don't actually know what a forgery is but it sure sounds scary. Thanks for posting those links, it helps clear this up a bit.
maxine*j
·3 years agoI think the use of the word "forgery" was just a translation thing. It has a specific meaning to you, in art and antiques, but broadly (in common use and in on-line translators) it can mean imitation, fake, copy, phony, reproduction, knock-off.
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sonomabarn67
OP3 years agoCould be but it got picked up instantly as a negative. And I agree, it's like when the word plastic is used in the arts, and they are talking about plaster ornamentation for walls and ceilings and the first thing people go to is toys.
waxu_93
·3 years ago大明宣德年制
大明-----China Ming Dynasty
宣德----year of an emperor
宣德年====Year of Xuande
制====made
I suspect that this Chinese bronze of yours is a forgery.This Xuande bronze ware is very expensive and very rare.But there are so many fakes🙄