Help with Antique Slide Lid Box
Summary: jpgharv29 asked for help in identifying the age and origin of an antique slide-lid box featuring mysterious heraldic symbols. They reached out to the College of Arms in the UK but received limited assistance. krazzykats suggested it might be a Chinese urn or tobacco box, while eoma689485 proposed it could be a Scottish chip-carved box. lacemaker3 argued that the heraldic elements might be invented or pseudo-heraldry, as they do not follow traditional rules. Despite diverse opinions, the mystery of the box's origin remains unsolved, and jpgharv29 is hoping for further insights from the community.
Wow! I have not posted here in quite some time and boy, these boards have changed!
I tried for mouths to ID the age and origin of this 8 x 5 inch antique slide-lid box, but to no avail. I even contacted the Collage of Arms over in the UK regarding the attached white metal Arms. But their remarks were; probably not English and could not ID what the symbol over at right was/is (ginkgo leaf ???).
I've seen some miracles pulled-off on these boards over the years in respects to making ID's of unknown objects of art, hopefully another will be performed?
You alls thoughts on this piece? Thank you so much for your time!
lacemaker3
·2 weeks ago · EditedThe motto, Ne Victus Maneo, is a spelling variation on one that is reported to have been used by Clan Armstrong, Invictus Maneo.
A kilt-selling website in the USA claims that Clan Armstrong also used a crest of an arm (with no axe), but there is no evidence to suggest that is any older than the 19th or early 20th century, when a lot of Scottish traditions were made up by the Victorians.
The dexter charge on this shield is different, anyway. It is a gauntlet grasping a battle axe, not an arm. This is not a very common charge, and in this case, the shield has a bird as a crest.
If the UK College of Arms could not identify the other charge, then I don't think anyone could identify what it is supposed to be.
Another website shows several variations on arms showing 3 arms (without battle axes), used by various members of the Anderson Clan. Again, that is not the same charge as on this piece so this does not appear to be official arms used by anyone.
This all suggests that this piece is showing arms that were made up by someone as part of the heraldry craze, rather than an official set of arms that were granted to someone.
From the pictures on the Worthpoint site, it looks to be about the right size for holding spills (splinters of wood or twisted paper, used to light candles or fires). So it could be a spill box. They were often placed on a mantel over the fire.
jpgharv29
OP2 weeks ago@lacemaker3 "If the UK College of Arms could not identify the other charge, then I don't think anyone could identify what it is supposed to be."
This is why I was hoping this board can pull off another miracle. I've seen many over the years here. I'm sure you have as well? There's some amazing sleuths here........or used to be any way. Thank you for your thoughts .
lacemaker3
·2 weeks ago · EditedWell, I am one of the people who were usually able to explain/identify the heraldic questions, and have been for years. I'm still around (so far).
I used to do calligraphy and illuminated manuscript artwork, which usually involved heraldic components. I had to learn the rules and restrictions of traditional heraldry. So I can answer from experience on this topic, not just book-learning. My artwork had to meet all traditional heraldic rules and restrictions, though, so I had to know about them.
I have done some additional research into this shield, so I will share the results for your edification.
Referring to the charge on the left (as viewed; in traditional heraldry the sides are described according to the person holding the shield, so this charge is dexter [on the right side], which is the standard or default position, and is assumed if the opposite position [sinister = left] is not specified).
The "official" heraldic description of this charge is:
"A gauntlet grasping a battle-axe"
This is an unusual charge: meaning that I have not found any evidence of this charge being used in an official/recorded arms.
When two distinct charges are included in one shield, normally, they are distributed equally on either side of the shield. That has not happened on this shield. The gauntlet-grasping-the-battle-axe is taking most of the shield, and the tethered-bifoil is squeezed in the top-right corner.
The bottom line is: this shield does not follow the rules of heraldry, so it has to be pseudo-heraldry. or invented heraldry.
jpgharv29
OP2 weeks ago@lacemaker3 "this shield does not follow the rules of heraldry, so it has to be pseudo-heraldry. or invented heraldry."
Thanks as always for taking the time out to try and help solve these mysteries presented to this board, most appreciated!
While, this is a possibility, I just can't make since of such given the where and when (I *think * 18th Century India) this box was made. During this period in Asia, there were many Westerners there of high status conducting trade and having "exotic" objects made for them to bring back to their homeland. I can't see a Westerner of that era having what appears to be such a personal object commissioned, just for the central focal point to be pseudo. The maker (most likely of Asian descent) had to have had something to copy this Armorial from (most likely given to him/her from the person wanting the object made).
I also could not find a comparable image of this botanical charge (tethered-bifoil) you so kindly described. After looking at the engraved charge much more closely, it appears as if it's growing out of something or something is attached to its base?
eoma689485
·2 weeks agoMy Guess - an antique Scottish chip-carved oak sliding-lid box (candle box, document box, or a slide-top keepsake box).
Clan Armstrong or maybe a Clan Armstrong crest combined with another crest due to a marriage?
jpgharv29
OP2 weeks ago@eoma689485
Thank you for your thoughts.
This (Clan Armstrong) I looked into as well. But it was the maker's use of: "NE-victus" as opposed to: "IN-victus" is where I could find no connection. I'm not implying Clan Armstrong is wrong (in fact, it's the strongest possibility for the Armorial given the imagery of the armored arm and battle axe) I just couldn't find any other comps where "NE" was in place of "IN". And then there's this imagery to its right, what is it? If only it could be ID'ed,
lacemaker3
·1 week ago · EditedClan Armstrong did not use a battle axe, in their crest or on their arms. The charge they used was an arm (just an arm), not armoured, three of them, on the shield. Centered, one above the other.
No gauntlets, no armour, and no axes involved.
Hand-carved woodwork boxes like these were produced in India and similar locations, at least until the mid-late 20th century, around 1975, if not later. So I don't think that an 18th century date for this piece can be substantiated.
jpgharv29
OP1 week ago · Edited@lacemaker3
With all due respect, this is not 100% accurate. The Armstrong's were not the only clan/family who used the Invictus Maneo motto..........so did the Inglis and Wright's, and nor did their charge/s only use just arms. Also, while I may not be 100% of the exact age and origin of this box, what I am certain of is its vintage (meaning not, modern).
jpgharv29
OP2 weeks ago · Edited@lacemaker3
This I seen. Seller, clearly misidentified it and conducted next to no research.
@krazzykats
I'm not sure I understand your reply. I can see it probably being Anglo-Asian given the decoration, wood (padouk?) and metal (paktong?) type, but a Chinese urn or tobacco box? Please help me see this connection.
I assume you ment Chinese export made in the European fashion such as these 18th C. chairs?
Link: https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-5832886
lacemaker3
·2 weeks ago · Editedhttps://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/carved-pressed-wood-ne-victus-maneo-4954203040
Sold on eBay for US$190, on Mar 4, 2026.
https://www.ebay.com/sh/research?marketplace=EBAY-US&keywords=Old+Carved+Pressed+Wood%2C+%5C%5C%5C%22Ne+Victus+Maneo%5C%5C%5C%22%2C+Keepsake-Memory+Trinket+Box&dayRange=1095&endDate=1790233200000&startDate=1695625200000&offset=0&limit=50&tabName=SOLD&tz=America%2FNew_York
krazzykats
·2 weeks agoPossibly a Chinese urn or tobacco box.