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Loophole that enables theft via ebay
People who would like to steal a large amount of money via ebay, please do not read this. This post is intended to warm buyers about a way to steal via ebay.
All sellers intending to steal from buyers need to do: alter the shipping label so the empty box (or just an empty envelope) goes to a different address than the one attached to the tracking number. The recipient at the wrong address gets a piece of junk mail and tosses it. The package is then reported by USPS as delivered to the buyer's actual address, and eBay denies a claim that the package didn't arrive, denies the refund, and pays the seller.
This nearly happened to me. I only got my $700 back because I thought to ask USPS for an image of the actual shipping label and they had one to provide. If USPS had not taken and stored an image of the shipping label I'd have lost $700. USPS did not care to further investigate or prosecute, so the intended thieves had nothing to fear from them. Or from ebay, as all they will do is cancel the account and take minimal steps to prevent the same people from creating another account.
If this loophole is not somehow closed then USPS delivery confirmation cannot constitute proof that a package was delivered to the buyer's address.
kh-tuna
·6 months agoHi everyone,
Due to the age of this thread, it has been closed to further replies. Please feel free to start a new thread if you wish to continue to discuss this topic.
Thank you for understanding.
semo_sports_cards
·6 months agoConversely, I’ve had buyers recently claim a package was not delivered a very short time after I’ve shipped, before it’s even had time to be delivered, and receive a refund. Then, shortly after I’ll receive notification that they received the item. On one occasion I even refunded them myself. So I lost money on an item while the buyer got the item for free
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@karesh,
Yesterday afternoon you replied to my last post:
"I am now wondering if the shipping label was altered, or just sent to a different address in the same zip and maybe eBay can only tell that the zip code was correct? If a seller manually enters the tracking number, can eBay tell which specific address is on the label, or only the zip code? If only the zip code, the seller can just send the package to a different address in the same zip code, and it will be reported as properly delivered to eBay".
Shipping labels purchased through ebay are actually generated by Pittney Bowes, ebay's shipping partner. They are sent in a PDF format, which can be altered.
eBay's system can only go by the Delivered zipcode, if it is not the same as the one shown in the order details, since that is one of the semi public things that they can access. Unfortunately, that info cannot be sent in the original automated (INR) dispute, but can be sent as a photo or scan of the label, when an appeal is filed.
"It was a clear case of fraud using the mail because the printed address on the printed shipping label would not match the address USPS had in their system for the tracking number, unless I'm giving the seller too much credit for their photoshop skillz... The USPS would have had to work with eBay to identify the sender".
If a seller prints their label from the USPS dot com, Stamps dot com or other postage site, that is the info on record with the USPS or other shipping agency, when the label is generated. That is why in my instructions on how to win disputes on appeal, I tell them to take a copy of the order details page with them to the shipper's office or store, so a clerk can compare the address where an item was supposed to be sent to vs. the one on the label.
As far as the postal inspectors are concerned they would take the position that there is no provable scam to investigate, because they cannot access Your ebay account's Order details page. They might not even accept an email or photo with the O.D. details info since those might possibly be altered. Mail Fraud is used by buyers as well as sellers after all.
Then trying to track down the scammer who most likely uses several fake return addresses, and/or dropped the package off in the bin at a P.O. ... trying to catch them would take too many man hours better used on provable fraud cases.
"EBay claims they require information that can be used to identify a seller to set up an account. But I imagine getting eBay to cooperate might require a subpoena or something like it, so it certainly isn't easy.
You do realize that there is a lot of ways serious scammers can get access stolen credit card, SSNs, and other info off the dark web, that would allow them to set up a verified ebay account, and they come up with new ways to get info every day. Why do you think there are so many warning stories about internet scams on the news, and why credit monitoring, or info protection companies have become a growth industry?
karesh
OP2 years agoI hadn't thought of theft via eBay as a use for stolen identity info, but makes sense if there isn't a more lucrative use for this info. As loose as eBay's security seems to be, I imagine that each account can only pull off only one or two, maybe three scams before they see a pattern and refuse to pay the scammer.
karesh
OP2 years agoUSPS just called me on the phone (!!) to confirm that the address in their system for the tracking number was mine, and that the label was doctored to show a different address. So the scammers did go through that much trouble. They also confirmed that the label was purchased in Chicago but mailed in Georgia, with the return address in California. No idea what this achieves. Makes law enforcement more difficult?
stainlessenginecovers
·2 years agoIt that 'so-called' "loophole" were 'closed', then Sellers would have NO proof of delivery and Scamming Thieves would just 'pose as buyers' and buy things and simply state 'I didn't get it' and sellers would have to refund??
No, the answer is this:
USPS, Fedex, UPS etc. need to show the EXACT address (street number/name, city,)(along with the 'already' "zip code" on ALL tracking- then it would be obvious.
So, this FIX- falls on the Delivery Companies and NOT on the entities that people list/sell/buy on (which would also include Amazon, FB, Mercari etc.)
karesh
OP2 years agoThe sentence was a conditional because my preferred solution would certainly be a more rigorous system to prevent sellers from intentionally sending an item (likely an empty envelope) to the wrong address in order to get money in return for nothing. But it's probably not practical to expect this solution to come entirely from the shipping companies unless one actually seeks a competitive advantage by, I don't know, actually checking that the address on the label matches the one in their system.
It is possible that the seller in my case didn't alter the label--they entered the wrong address intentionally when buying the label. To prevent this, eBay might require that sellers buy labels through eBay if they want protection against claims that the item was intentionally sent to the wrong address. Then eBay knows which address is associated with the tracking number.
I can also see that sellers with a certain amount of positive feedback from buyers might be held to somewhat looser standards.
What I know for certain is that the current systems aren't nearly good enough.
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@karesh,
I'm happy that the info I gave you will be helpful in the future should you run into this again. In your reply you did write:
"I got the label by emailing USPS with my suspicions that the item was not delivered to my address and asking if they had an image of the shipping label. They replied with that image, but with the recipient's name and street number blacked out... The street name was enough for ebay, as it was not my street".
Some of us may be surprised that ebay accepted the email. Usually, they will not because emails can be faked, but maybe because it was an image they accepted it. I'm also surprised that the USPS rep did email the image as well. I take it the image included the same tracking number posted on the Order details. I may try and include that information in my future replies.
As you may have noted in the link I provided UPS & FedEx are mentioned. Those two companies have even more stringent Privacy Policies, and it can be harder to get them to write the needed notes people need.
As for the return address info being different and according to you possibly a non existent one. That is the scammers protecting themselves from being caught by the Postal inspectors, and from those who try an effect a return/refund by claiming not as described. (some on these boards suggest doing that) The return tracking would show an "Undeliverable" scan causing ebay to deny a refund. Scammers, aren't completely clueless after all.
"they refused to provide this or to investigate this use of the mail to commit a crime further".
"They" in this case being the USPS? would know that tracking down the scammer by return address or other methods, would be next to impossible. They need clear cut proof of the scam. After all what if it turned out the sender, made an honest mistake mixing up addresses? They would have wasted time on an investigation, while worse postal fraud cases are waiting for resolution.
"Too many people will not figure out how to properly respond to this scam, making it an effective way to steal via eBay. The initial decision in favor of the seller with no acknowledgement of the potential scam or instructions in how to counter it assists the scammers, and will seriously tick off people like myself and those in the thread you linked to".
As I have written, this scam does not just happen on ebay. It also happens on the other 3rd party listing sites that provide individual sellers space to sell their items. Still if you take into account, the total number of sales on this and the other sites vs. the number of times fake tracking scams happen, you would probably find the percentage of scams is a very low one.
Even more unfortunate is that way too many users of those sites, have never read the terms of their return/refund policies. Many that we reply to on these boards, who have been members for years, have yet to tread the terms of the MBG.
Myself and a few others are trying to get ebay to post the instructions on how to win an appeal in these cases. Maybe one of the lower level ebay employees we can reach, will buck it high enough up the ladder to get it done. Though experience has shown, that when writing or rewriting help topics, often important info is left out or actions needed to be taken poorly described.
karesh
OP2 years agoIt was a clear case of fraud using the mail because the printed address on the printed shipping label would not match the address USPS had in their system for the tracking number, unless I'm giving the seller too much credit for their photoshop skillz.
I am now wondering if the shipping label was altered, or just sent to a different address in the same zip and maybe eBay can only tell that the zip code was correct? If a seller manually enters the tracking number, can eBay tell which specific address is on the label, or only the zip code? If only the zip code, the seller can just send the package to a different address in the same zip code, and it will be reported as properly delivered to eBay.
The USPS would have had to work with eBay to identify the sender. EBay claims they require information that can be used to identify a seller to set up an account. But I imagine getting eBay to cooperate might require a subpoena or something like it, so it certainly isn't easy.
On the use of a bogus return address, why would eBay decide in favor of the seller if the return address provided by the seller is not correct?
soh.maryl
·2 years agoMaybe this is ignorance on my part, but it's indeed puzzling why anyone would publish instructions about how to scam either buyers or sellers.
karesh
OP2 years agoI posted this because I've been trying to get eBay to take this problem more seriously, and they refuse to, so people need to be warned how it is done and what might be done to counter it. I've been here for 26 years. Lately I've been running into far more scams, and if eBay doesn't do more to combat them people are going to lose whatever level of trust they still have in the site.
invicto
·2 years agoThis just happened to me. The scam seller has a two-step shipping process, so that the first is accomplished very quickly; and then the second happens much later — e.g., I ordered a Cuisinart food processor, and 30 days later I received a tiny package from Kyrgyzstan containing two disposable makeup applicators. Ebay refunded my money, but I am seeing other listings — for the same food processor! — whose sellers' names are suspiciously similar to the one I got taken by, in that they are gibberish in English.
Part of the scam is for the seller to have a 100% rating, by selling a few nicknacks before the main play. After the money is in his hands, he cancels his account.
If the seller of an item has a 100% rating, but only 5-8 ratings, and if the item is not in North America, do not buy it.
bonjourami
·2 years ago"Part of the scam is for the seller to have a 100% rating, by selling a few nicknacks before the main play. After the money is in his hands, he cancels his account."
Sellers cannot close their accounts that quickly. It can take up to six months for Ebay to close their account, because of the six month buyer protection at Paypal and most cc's. They dont want to be left holding the bag for a refund.
gosimus
·2 years agoYes, it can be very easily done. The scam seller just has cronies make insignificant purchases, for the purpose of leaving those positive feedbacks.
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@invicto,
Your issue is similar but not the same as the one this topic is about. If you want your message to get out and/or help with it, you should post your own discussion rather than piggyback on another person's topic, so it gets read and replied to by more people.
karesh
OP2 years agoI keep forgetting to reply to your remark about my feedback, that negative feedback is only possible as a buyer. Frankly, I only learned this a few days ago.
I haven't sold anything recently. But in 2019 I went through a phase where I bought and sold about 70 cameras and lenses over a three-month period, and never received neutral or negative feedback for any of them. I don't remember having any returns, either. Based on my experience as a buyer, I did note any flaws in detail, and this probably helped.
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@karesh,
In your last reply you wrote:
"EBay does NOT accept the buyer's word that the package wasn't received, this is my entire point... eBay still accepted the word of a seller with zero feedback over mine because USPS said they delivered it "as addressed."
No ebay did not accept the word of the seller. You may have noticed, when you filed the original Item Not Received (INR) dispute, there was no place to download any information. That is because eBay can only check the tracking information for a Delivered scan. They cannot access the package's actual shipping label, because they are neither the sender or recipient, due to shipping agencies privacy policies. Technically only the sender is supposed to be able to see the actual label info. When ebay does deny a buyer's claim, in the message they receive letting them know that there is an Appeal button, which when used, does allow the buyer to down load additional information.
"I only got my $700 back because I thought to ask USPS for an image of the actual shipping label and they had one to provide".
Shipping labels are saved by the USPS for either 60 or 90 days from the date it was purchased. We've been dealing with the fake tracking number scams on these boards, for several years now, and this is the first time I know of, that a buyer was able to get an image of the label. How did you get that?
Clerks from USPS, FedEx, UPS ... are not supposed to give that info/image to a recipient. If they could, the scam could easily be exposed, and would not be so popular amongst scammers, not only on ebay but on the other online 3rd party listing sites, where the site itself does not ship from its own facility, individual sellers send items from their location. Below is a link to a topic about a fake tracking scam with instructions on how to win it. It might be worth your while to read it.
Click on the Go to best answer button in it.
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Buying/Fake-Tracking-information/m-p/34266951#M475809
" I have a very old account with 100% feedback in more than 600 transactions and eBay still accepted the word of a seller with zero feedback over mine because USPS said they delivered it "as addressed".
Your length of time on the site, and 100% percentage means nothing if you only buy from an account or haven't sold from it in over a year, because buyers cannot receive negative or neutral feedback and haven't been able to since `08. So even non payers and scam buyers have a 100% rating.
"My confidence in eBay's protection has been severely shaken. I won't be buying from iffy or low-feedback accounts in the future".
Actually ebay's money back guarantee (MBG) works very well. However it does have its limits, one of which is shipping agencies privacy policies blocking them from information because ebay is not a party to the shipping transaction.
There has always been issues with new/inexperienced sellers, because of their inexperience and often a lack of knowledge about ebay's policies. I do not know what you mean by "iffy" sellers, but if you mean ones who list items with a well below trending price. That should always be a warning.
karesh
OP2 years agoThank you for the detailed reply. Hopefully if I hadn't gotten the label image from USPS I would have learned about the method you describe in the linked thread.z
I got the label by emailing USPS with my suspicions that the item was not delivered to my address and asking if they had an image of the shipping label. They replied with that image, but with the recipient's name and street number blacked out. I asked for the street number, to try to retrieve the package, and they refused to provide this or to investigate this use of the mail to commit a crime further.
The street name was enough for ebay, as it was not my street. The zip code was the same. The weight was shown as "3 lbs" even though the item in the image appears to be an envelope that could not contain 3 lbs. The return address on the label--not blacked out--was in CA even though the package was mailed from GA and the item location was supposedly IL. As far as I could tell, no one by the name included with the return address--not blacked out--has ever lived at the return address. It was almost certainly bogus. The item they mailed was addressed so it would disappear without raising any flags at USPS or eBay.
Too many people will not figure out how to properly respond to this scam, making it an effective way to steal via eBay. The initial decision in favor of the seller with no acknowledgement of the potential scam or instructions in how to counter it assists the scammers, and will seriously tick off people like myself and those in the thread you linked to.
vintagecraze50
·2 years agoWell now, CONGRATULATIONS on catching your scammer. Good job indeed, and let’s hope many others will be caught as well.
karesh
OP2 years agoI caught them, but eBay is refusing to do anything to them other than ban them from eBay--as if they can't just set up another account. USPS doesn't care to go after them for using the mail to commit theft, either. So they're only out the amount they spent on shipping.
I did wonder if they were also attempting insurance fraud, since they insured the package, unless the "insurance" included in the tracking info was only the included $100.
reallynicestamps
·2 years ago--as if they can't just set up another account.
Managed Payments makes this more difficult for sellers.
The new seller has to provide their SSN and checking account information to eBay to get paid.
While using the same checking account for multiple IDs is allowed, the SSN should kick a banned seller out of the system.
Providing a bank account in the same country in which the seller is registered also makes scam selling more difficult.
The "failed transaction" rate is often reported as under one percent, although reports of 40% returns on AZ may change the future numbers.
asset_liquidators
·2 years agoWhat exactly do you think ebay can do other than ban them? It is not like they have their own police force to go kicking in doors.
karesh
OP2 years agoThey could report scammers to the relevant law enforcement authorities, and cooperate with these authorities. As long as no one is making any serious effort to do this the scammers face no serious consequences and will continue to scam. You're just making excuses for this situation.
gator08041971
·2 years agoBuyers unfortunately can do a similar tactic in response in some cases.
Fortunately, the amount of bad sellers and buyers that would stoop to those extremes are relatively low. Most of the time you just get angry buyers or sellers, that are mad for one reason or another and try simpler tactics to cheat each other instead.
Thankfully, most sellers aren't like that.
Good luck out there.
bonjourami
·2 years agoGetting a USPS statement that the item was not delivered to your address usually does the trick in these scams.
karesh
OP2 years agoUntil I had them check for an image of the actual shipping label USPS reported that the item was delivered to my address.
bonjourami
·2 years agoIm surprised tha they showed you that label, they usually dont disclose where the item was actually shipped, but Ebay usually accepts their statement that it wasnt delivered to your address.
karesh
OP2 years agoEBay does NOT accept the buyer's word that the package wasn't received, this is my entire point. I have a very old account with 100% feedback in more than 600 transactions and eBay still accepted the word of a seller with zero feedback over mine because USPS said they delivered it "as addressed."
This is why I'm not trying to get them to do better. My confidence in eBay's protection has been severely shaken. I won't be buying from iffy or low-feedback accounts in the future.
bonjourami
·2 years ago"EBay does NOT accept the buyer's word that the package wasn't received, this is my entire point."
Of course they dont, who said they did?
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@bonjourami,
Sometimes one gets caught up on one point, when posting and doesn't think of others while replying. I'm guessing that @karesh , has forgotten what the site looked like back in the early years, pre 2000,
before tracking could be done directly from the listing in the purchase history, because the USPS and other shippers did not have online tracking.
before buying shipping labels from ebay was available,
before tracking was included for free on most services,
before images could be uploaded to any "claim" before they were called disputes, and before the MBG.
Back then, if there was tracking that had a delivered scan even the U.S. based phone reps would not allow an appeal, because tracking showed Delivered.
asset_liquidators
·2 years agoThe carrier reported that it was delivered to the "address on record" but they should just take your word for it that it wasn't?
Ebay shouldn't "accept the buyers word" for it. However, there are procedures in place as you found out, to stop those scammers and good on you for doing it.
karesh
OP2 years agoApologies if I misread a post earlier or replied to the wrong one.
On getting an image of the label from USPS, they did black out the recipient's name and street number, but left the street name visible, was which enough as it was not mine.