Getting UPS to cooperate in case of a tracking scam
I'm a victim of the fake-tracking number scam as detailed/tracked here by @ittybitnot
I have been trying to get UPS to confirm, in writing, that the tracking number I was provided was for somebody else's package entirely. I managed to get both a local dispatcher and UPS support to confirm this to me verbally, and the former even specified who the actual sender was (Amazon) as well as the recipient's address (not me, someone a few blocks away). But they would not put this in writing or in an email. The dispatcher directed me to national UPS customer support, and national support first said that (a) eBay would have to contact them (which of course they do not appear to ever bother to do) before settling on (b) directing me to fill in a form alleging fraud via their website, here.
This I have done, but (a) this department, to my knowledge, doesn't actually deal with this kind of thing, but fraud related to UPS accounts (b) even in such cases, testimonials online appear to be that people can wait weeks or months for a response, if they even get one at all.
So, does anybody know how to get UPS to cooperate? As it happens the very same seller has pulled this scam on another buyer, with this very same product, except their fake tracking number came from FedEx, and they have gotten it resolved in their favor by getting an "Ftrack" document from them and submitting it to PayPal (not to eBay). I know this because they left the seller negative feedback today to this effect, which I'm assuming they wouldn't have done if things weren't already resolved in their favor. Based on that, I took a screenshot of their feedback page as it exists right now, and fired off as detailed a message as I could to the eBay for Business Facebook page. In my specific case, I at least have this plus the fact that the package wasn't just left on a doorstep, but was signed for by someone who is a total stranger to me.
That said, I suspect this won't be enough for them, even with the negative feedback. I only sent my message to them about an hour and a half ago, and if they are in fact US-based, that's too late in the day to expect to receive any response before tomorrow, so there's still hope, but that said, if anybody has any advice as to how to get somebody at UPS to issue a statement saying the package was not sent to my address, that would be incredibly helpful.
ghoulsxghosts
·1 year agoJust found this thread. I experienced a similar issue around this same date range.
I have contacts that work in mid management in UPS, and they were able to more or less confirm the following:
UPS employees are able to access tracking # search tools that query for ~ “tracking #s heading to address X with an ETA of Y.â€
This means if someone UPS internally who is savvy enough, they can set up listings for expensive products and give you a very real tracking number for something that not only closely matches the weight / dimensions of what you purchased, but also gets delivered within your own ZIP code, leading mostly everyone to believe it was a shipping mistake.
In my case, purchased expensive items from TCGplayer, which holds seller funds until the product is marked as completed and shipped. The UPS employee running this scam is able to collect funds quickly because of their increased access to tracking # data. In the end, either UPS or the seller site like EBay or Tcgplayer take the fall and provide refunds to protect the buyer.
My contact internally at UPS has raised the issue even higher internally and they confirmed they’re aware that this is happening. That’s all I know.
house*of*paws
·2 years agoHi @just.eli
I had your problem with 5 separate orders about 2 years ago. I didn’t have much difficulty getting either FedEx or UPS to attach a statement to an email that showed my tracking number was associated with a different name and address than mine. [I had to pick up the statement from USPS.]
I phoned UPS (800-742-5877) and spoke with their Fraud Department, who was familiar with the ‘Fake tracking number scam’. [It wasn’t as well known back then.]
I understand that people are having more trouble lately getting statements from UPS and FedEx … but I don’t know if they’re contacting their local offices or what.
I would try phoning UPS and ask to be connected to their Fraud Department. If you have difficulty dealing with eBay after providing a statement as evidence … then deal directly with the Fraud Department of your credit card company. Good luck!
just.eli
OP2 years agoSomehow missed your reply earlier. I am not sure why, if the fraud department at UPS actually has people I can speak to directly, why the rep I spoke to didn’t just transfer me to them, and instead insisted that I submit an email to the fraud department via their webform. Maybe I got unlucky, maybe their policies changed, who knows. But I’ll bear this in mind when I contact them again, and will try to get them to transfer me to the fraud department when I speak to them tomorrow. Thank you for your testimony here.
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@just.eli,
I see that you have mentioned contact with ebay reps a few times since my last reply. Are you going through the process of getting call backs, or did you look up an ebay customer service number online?
If you did get a call back or used the Chat option, the rep(s) you dealt with may not know how to deal with this issue, since it is not covered in the playbook they read from. Them opening an INR dispute will get you nowhere. Hopefully, if they do that it will show up in your My ebay summary page, so if you do get a letter from UPS you can attach it to an Appeal, which you should win.
If you called a number you looked up online, you never spoke to a real ebay rep, not even one of their 3rd party call/chat center ones.
just.eli
OP2 years agoYeah as I said in my original post at the very top of the thread, I contacted the eBay for Business page, just like everybody said to. They didn’t reply to me until the next day, after your replies here. They’re the ones that began the INR, which they did without my knowledge or consent, I’m afraid—they only informed me after they had already opened it.
Today will likely be difficult but I will try to get to UPS tomorrow. As it stands, the case has been open for about a day with no sign of action by either eBay or the seller. I wonder if they’re trying to run out the clock a little bit by not responding quickly, or what…
ise710
·2 years agoYes even eBay on Facebook will start an INR for you without permission, as they are trying to help you.
Hope you make progress tomorrow. The employees are not paid to write a letter for you, whether it's requested by phone, at a franchisee, or a company location. It's not your package, so they are not allowed to discuss that tracking with anyone else. Their automated customer service applies that policy.
What's the tracking number?
And what's the delivery address?
Sorry, that's not your package. {Click.}
After 3 business days, if the seller has not responded to the INR -- they don't need to, as eBay already adds the tracking number with no option to change that tracking number -- eBay will step in, see that that tracking number shows delivered, and close your INR without a refund. And automatically block/remove your feedback that could've warned other/future buyers about this seller.
Unfortunately, that's how it works and you'd
- proceed with an appeal (which eBay pays you themselves)
- file at PayPal with their new "Delivered to the wrong address" dispute option, or
- contact your card issuer with the same reason that it was a fake tracking scam to get your refund.
just.eli
OP2 years agoBeginning the clock on a time-limited claims process that defaults against me without telling me they would do so and before I have collected as much exonerative information as I can doesn’t strike me as remotely helpful. I did not get nearly as detailed a response as you seem to have gotten here nor did they say anything positive about how the claims process would go.
If the seller doesn’t actually need to do anything to respond here, then on top of everything, their UI is *grossly* misleading. Thank you for pointing this out, honestly. This is some truly egregious stuff.
I have not filed any feedback until now precisely because I’m aware of the fact that their system and policies are stacked against me right now.
I’m sure that UPS employees are not paid to deal with this kind of thing. That said, I still resent the implication that I’m asking them for anybody’s information; all I am doing is asking them to confirm that the box was not addressed to me. (Which they’ve done verbally twice now.) They needn’t disclose who or where it was addressed to, or who or where the sender was, in order to do so. This doesn’t compromise anybody’s personal information, whatsoever, and if that’s still against policy, then it’s just as trash a policy as eBay’s policy of not making sure shipping labels are legitimate upon initial entry into their system.
I am sure cooperation is going to be like pulling teeth, precisely because of such shortsightedness on corporate’s part. But the entity in the wrong there is corporate and their policy, which enables scammers, not…me…for insisting they act responsibly.
I’m aware of the PayPal and CC options in case the eBay option fails.
As for the other alternative, which I suspect is closed to me now: it might get me my money back, but I don’t see how I’d be able to leave a negative feedback for them either. It strikes me as enabling the scammer if I go that route, even if they’re out the money.
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@just.eli,
Answers from ebay's Facebook or Instagram reps are not alway's instantaneous. There are not that many of them tasked with dealing with the social media sites, so they probably deal with issues in the order they are received on both of their SM sites. Depending on the volume if issues they receive it has been known to take them several days to work on a specific member's issue. They are not trying to run the clock out on you.
dare-2046
·2 years agoOver 3 business days have passed in your INR case @just.eli. What's the situation now -- did you get the letter from UPS, or any progress with your refund?
just.eli
OP2 years agoWelp, my initial contact with eBay last night resulted in them beginning a ‘not delivered’ case, before actually telling me they would do anything of the sort. I’m afraid that if I manually close the case before it can proceed, it might work out against me in the long run (it’s been open for a couple of hours or so). The rep did mention that he thought I had enough compelling evidence but emphasized that there are no guarantees with appeals, and did not attempt to clarify my responsibilities here. I’m still upset about it, even if he meant well. Am beginning to lose hope, but really, I would hate to let any of them (the scammer, eBay, or UPS) just get away with this.
ED: now elaborating along the lines that @mudshark61369 suggested. Really I wish I were just told this without having the process start before telling me. I guess that’s policy, but I didn’t expect it, would not have chanced contacting them if I thought it was a possiblity 😞
kensgiftshop
·2 years agoIf they opened an INR, don't close it, wait and see what happens.
If you have a local UPS center, not a UPS store, visit it and see if they can help.
simba6
·2 years agoYou have to keep calling. Each call gets a different rep and in time one will help. They sent me an e mail with the ship to address of where it went. You can also contact your credit card company if that is how you paid. They can get the info if you can't.
just.eli
OP2 years agoThis kind of persistence seems to be what I need right now, I guess. Will report back when there’s anything to report.
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@just.eli,
I have never heard of an Ftrack document, where did it come from? If it had to be printed from an online source it wouldn't be acceptable by ebay. One of the "newish" things not mentioned by you, is to bring a copy of the order details or a portable device to show the clerk the address and tracking number for the order with you to a store, so they could compare it. Bringing the email is to show that some one at UPS already admitted the difference, but also so you can say ebay will not accept emails or you wouldn't need to be there.
Right off the Bat, I did say UPS & FedEx can be difficult to deal with. If you plan on going back to a UPS store maybe call in advance and see when its owner/manager will be there. Maybe they will be more helpful.
just.eli
OP2 years agoMmm, but that the fact that they’re difficult to deal with is precisely why I’m here asking questions. Seems like the main answer, besides being as prepared as you can, is to be persistent, and if one rep turns you down, to try to get another. There doesn’t appear to be a script beyond ‘don’t ask for personal info’, which, yeah, obviously.
I’m not particularly interested in debating the merits (or not) of an Ftrack document, or whether eBay would accept such a thing—really, it’s not relevant to my case, and even if I end up going the PayPal route, after exhausting the eBay one, UPS is not Fedex. I mentioned it here mainly to elaborate on the feedback that I screenshotted, not to provide advice or anything.
Otherwise, I’m not convinced franchisees are helpful here, manager or no. I was prepared with all of the information you mention here, other than an email from UPS in my favor, when I showed up the other day, which is why I didn’t specify that part as news to me. (In your defense, I didn’t mention that I already tried talking the store route, mainly because it went nowhere.) All that said, I will absolutely try to take the steps you laid out in an actual corporate-operated location.
nenu-5410
·2 years agoThe several of us are plainly disingenuous @just.eli sending you on a fool's errand. UPS has already fulfilled its obligation, paid to deliver the package from the sender to the directed recipient. In their view, you somehow were given that tracking number that's none of your business.
You are not their customer, offer no payment, plus disrupting and distracting their operations. In fact, your requests are actually causing their employees to violate policy, and putting them in a dangerous position.
As mentioned, even if you get a piece of paper from them, it carries no weight because you could have fabricated it, or modified it to say anything before you scan it or take a photo of it.
If you look, there are other solutions discussed on these boards that will get your money back from the seller/scammer as should result after a scam, rather than eBay paying out-of-pocket for your refund.
just.eli
OP2 years agoI’m not asking them to disclose anybody’s private information, and I resent both the implication that I am ‘causing’ anybody to do anything untoward or acting entitled—**bleep**, I’m the victim of a scam here—as well as the idea that everyone else that’s responded to me until now is being anything but earnest and serious in their replies.
No, what people said was that an email wouldn’t work. Not that they dismiss even documents on letterhead out of hand as ipso facto forged. The eBay rep has since recommended the same, for the record, and if they were lying to me, or giving me false hope, that’s on them.
The only other ‘solution’ offered on these boards basically gets the scammer to have to return your money, but otherwise allows them to continue scamming people freely under their current username. I’m not really OK with that. If you had something else in mind, I’d appreciate it if you said so explicitly, instead of being cryptic.
As for consideration towards eBay, given it is their policy of allowing sellers to enter arbitrary tracking numbers that put me in this situation in the first place, I’m not particularly keen. This scam has been going on for years—at least since 2020, and most likely, earlier—and could be wholly avoided either by insisting that sellers buy labels within their system or by insisting sellers submit a photograph of the package a label matching both the tracking number and the user’s address prior to conveying the package to the carrier. I’m also not sure why they wouldn’t be within their rights to revert the transaction rather than having to cover for the seller, once it’s been found that they violate policy.
just.eli
OP2 years ago“So you have to be careful only to ask for general information not exact addresses or package information.â€
As I said in my initial post, I did precisely that, and they verbally confirmed that the package was not mine, twice. When I asked the service reps to put this in writing, they balked, and the second one directed me to the fraud webform.
“eBay will not accept emails forwarded to them, not addressed directly to them from a shipper, because emails can be faked or altered.â€
In the case I mentioned, presumably an Ftrack document is not a mere email.
“If you check a seller's feedback profile page before buying from them and see a comment(s) saying a package was delivered to a different address or zip code. It was allowed to remain, because that person never filed a dispute through ebay.â€
Yes, the person in question filed their dispute through PayPal, and made no mention of doing so through eBay. To reiterate, this feedback only showed up yesterday. It is still up as of now. Prior to buying, the guy had some feedback as a seller including one positive feedback on the very listing I was scammed from—I suppose from another compromised or straw account.
The only bits of new-ish information in your link is to go to an actual UPS or FedEx location, to try to get an email statement from a rep prior to showing up—not being able to get this out of them was part of my question; they are largely uncooperative—and to make sure to request a statement on corporate letterhead that is signed and dated (I figured it would come to this, but appreciate the clarification).
Unfortunately the vast majority of UPS Stores are clueless franchisees that have no authority or familiarity with issues like this; I found this out by showing up at one before even trying to contact UPS by phone. A guy on the line heard my situation, and that’s how I managed to get the number of a local dispatch person to begin with. Which UPS Stores are not franchisees is not, to my knowledge, publicly listed anywhere.
There are sometimes Customer Service Centers at their actual hubs, so if nobody had any idea how to get phone reps to cooperate—and it doesn’t seem like anybody does—my plan was to try to get to one, though this is not trivial for me. I am not sure it’s worth trying to coax an email out of the UPS reps before showing up, especially with no strategy to do so (I have to emphasize, again, that I did not ask for anybody’s personal information, only for confirmation that the package was not sent to my address, and twice they refused to do this in writing, even in an email). The only reason I could see to do this is to speed up the process a little—unless such clerks don’t have access to the same, more complete information that the reps do.
One more thing—the package weight of the scam package is within the ballpark of what my item should be. The dimensions of packages aren’t publicly listed, as far as I know, so I can try to get them to check that as well, though once they find it was addressed to somebody else at a different address, if they still raise objections on this score…well, I’d be livid. (Well, more than I already am.)
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@just.eli,
The reply ittybitnot posted in that link is pretty god advice but not as complete as what I have written in the link below. When you open it, if it does not go directly to the Best Answer, click on the Go to Best Answer button at the top of the page.
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Buying/Fake-Tracking-information/m-p/34266951#M475809
Dealing with UPS and FedEx, is more difficult than dealing with the USPS in these matters because they are private companies, and their privacy policies are stricter. So you have to be careful only to ask for general information not exact addresses or package information.
"....they have gotten it resolved in their favor by getting an "Ftrack" document from them and submitting it to PayPal (not to eBay). I know this because they left the seller negative feedback today to this effect, which I'm assuming they wouldn't have done if things weren't already resolved in their favor. Based on that, I took a screenshot of their feedback page as it exists right now, and fired off as detailed a message as I could to the eBay for Business Facebook page".
A) eBay will not accept emails forwarded to them, not addressed directly to them from a shipper, because emails can be faked or altered.
B) Posting the screen shot of the feedback to your Facebook message will not help you either. If the scammer knows what they are doing, and most scammers do, they can get the feedback removed, because it violates ebay's feedback policy about mentioning filing disputes through ebay, PayPal, or other entities, to get a refund or resolution. If they did file and Lose a dispute through ebay, that too qualifies it for removal.
If you check a seller's feedback profile page before buying from them and see a comment(s) saying a package was delivered to a different address or zip code. It was allowed to remain, because that person never filed a dispute through ebay.
Hopefully, you will do what I wrote and can post your issue on ebay's Facebook page again, and get a refund.
kako_5344
·2 years agoIn my case, eBay refused to look at my evidence because it passed through my hands, where it can be altered before I forward it to eBay. I protested that they can call the phone number for the person named on the document, but eBay said that they won't call anyone.
In the end I started a return request intending to return exactly what I received together with that document, but the seller quickly issued a refund to close the return.