FAKE American Silver Eagles
Why is it eBay continues to allow FAKE American Silver Eagles to be sold on their site? Granted, if the price is to good, avoid it. I went ahead and bought some knowing the were probably fake and they were. Then I had to fight to get my money back proving they were fake. But the scam didn't stop there. eBay authorized the return and the seller only refund 1/2 the cost, claiming they were not returned in the same condition. I contested that as the seller screwed up. eBay found in my favor. Now, the things I find strange with this ordeal is:
My negative feedback stating these were fake including pictures with proof was removed
The listing is still live - SELLING THE FAKES!
What is wrong with eBay? This seller should have been banned, or at least the listing selling the fakes removed! The seller has several negative feedbacks regarding selling fakes and one has to wonder how many have been removed like mine! Things like this sure doesn't make one comfortable buying on eBay and actually will effect ALL sellers as it will drive buyer away!
rhiggsbear
OP7 months agoWell, I would fully disclose my evidence and what I considered should have been the major red flag to make eBay nuke this seller but I really don't want to educate fraudsters. He sold over 1,000 these coins and I really feel sorry for the people buying these, not testing them and thinking they got silver when in fact, they got a silver plate copper slug.
FYI - I still have the fakes! 🙂
ccomic
·7 months agoI get it, but we need to lay off the blind support for eBay as well. I read two main points from these threads over and over...
1. The listings are no a big deal as there is no way any buyer wouldn't know the coins are fake
2. There is no way eBay can know these coins are fake
Anyone else see a contradiction here? Also, since when has eBay ever required "proof" of anything when taking down a listing?
eburtonlab
·7 months ago@ccomic
1. The listings are no a big deal as there is no way any buyer wouldn't know the coins are fake
2. There is no way eBay can know these coins are fake
No one here said counterfeit items are "no big deal" -- just that eBay cannot entirely prevent sellers from advertising one thing and delivering something else, so buyers need to be prepared for that rather than relying on eBay to prevent it from happening.
The difference between the cases you cite is that a buyer does not need anything close to "proof" to simply decide that a listing is too risky to purchase, or that a seller is too inexperienced to buy from. Any buyer can use any metric the buyer chooses to make that individual decision, even a "gut feeling". Buyers never have to explain or justify a decision not to buy to anyone.
For eBay to accuse a seller of selling a counterfeit item and to actually remove a listing from the site, eBay cannot simply claim to have a "gut feeling". eBay must have justifiable policies and thresholds that can be applied universally to all listings. Although eBay could theoretically pull any listing at any time, in practice eBay must have some sort of policy for how this actually happens -- with over a billion current listings there is no person that is overseeing all those listings, so there have to be rules that can be explained and enforced systematically.
It appears that eBay has recently changed the rules for some collectible coins, so now sellers must meet certain eligibility requirements in order to sell those items. Which items that applies to is not entirely clear yet, though, and current sellers' listings may be grandfathered in for now, at least until those sellers try to edit or relist something.
ccomic
·7 months agoHopefully it will improve over time with the other changes you mentioned, but from what I read here, eBay absolutely makes decisions based on algorithms ('gut feeling') when it comes not only to listings, but who is allowed to buy and sell.
eburtonlab
·7 months agoeBay absolutely makes decisions based on algorithms
One problem with that is that unless you know what the algorithm is actually doing, from the outside those decisions may appear to be arbitrary and inexplicable, even when they are not.
Another problem is that scammers do not give up when a listing is removed or an account is closed; they open new accounts or hijack existing accounts to try new scam tactics to get around whatever eBay does. And when one scammer finds a combination that works, other scammers quickly copy it.
So there is no silver bullet that makes scamming impossible, just an endless series of moves and countermoves between eBay and the scammers, where neither side can decisively win.
So buyers need to actively protect themselves from scams rather than relying on eBay to prevent buyers from being scammed.
igotyoursign
·7 months agoIt is sad, but the scammers pop up again and again under different names/accounts. eBay is playing "Whack-A-Mole trying to dump the scammers. They have been trolling buyers on eBay for years. There are many reputable sellers. The ones that have sold thousands of coins, and have hundreds of current listings are the ones to look for. Even sellers with a few hundred in feedback may be great people to buy from. Do some research, and remember a deal "too good" is a probable scam. Anyone offering precious metals for less than spot prices is suspicious. The current volatility of the silver market will bring the scammers out, so be careful.
msha3839
·6 months agoProblem with the western so called civilization is luck of responsibility and attempt to blame everyone around for incompetence of individuals…blaming sellers for counterfeit coins, blaming restaurants and bars for getting drunk and injuring others, blaming drug dealers for drug addiction…basically luck of common sense and intellect…🤧🥂
rhiggsbear
OP6 months agoSounds like you are supportive of criminal activity. Talk about the lack of "common sense and intelligence". It amounts to stealing and fraud. You know, illegal/criminal activity. I do blame dirtbag sellers for selling counterfeit coins, not the buyer and in this case, I was hoping to help future buyer and help keep eBay a safe place to buy. Something that seems to be important to eBay with their questionnaires.
FYI - these coins were not dirt cheap, they were priced a hair under spot. Something I have done in the past when I wanted to move some silver coins fast.
igotyoursign
·7 months agoStamps are a bit easier to see if they are fake.
msha3839
·6 months ago99.9% of people have no idea about philately and could care less if stamps real or fake..bottom line is saving money…
ccomic
·7 months agoI just did a search. I could see some ebay seller unloading some unneeded 78 cent stamps for 32 cents each, but not by the 1000’s. It makes me wonder if any of the forever stamps on eBay are actually genuine. Google it and see what the post office has to say about it.
ccomic
·7 months agoI don’t think many people are missing the point. It is more of a collective shrug.
I agree with you for what it’s worth. EBay could take these down if they wanted to, or limit coin listings to authorized dealers that they validate. I imagine its just a bean counter decision. Balance the profit from these listings against the loss from claims, leaving the ethical factor out of the equation.
rhiggsbear
OP7 months agoFunny how every one of you miss the point. eBay was notified they were fake, I provided evidence they were fake, They repaid me because they were fake and yet let the seller get to keep selling fakes. Then the seller tried to scam me with the return. PLUS, eBay removed my negative feedback with a picture proving they were fake. That is the point. Funny how eBay keep saying eBay is safe (money back guarantee) and sending out questionnaire asking if eBay is a safe place to buy. Well, one thing about it, if they are making numerous refunds and unable to collect from the sellers, YOUR SELLING FEES will have to cover this loss.
kathiec
·7 months agoAnd you're missing the point that eBay has no idea if your "evidence" is accurate. They refunded you because you said they were fake. EBay never requires evidence when an MBG claim for counterfeits is opened; they automatically find for the buyer. The case gave the seller an account defect. Just a few of those can get a seller suspended. But eBay is never going to kick a seller off on the word of one person. If they did all it would take for a seller to get rid of the competition is one report. Soon there would be three sellers left.
rhiggsbear
OP7 months ago"And you're missing the point that eBay has no idea if your "evidence" is accurate. "
Pretty bold statement from someone who is completely clueless about what evidence was provided and what transpired after that. I would explain it to you but feel you still be just a deer in the headlights. 😉
eburtonlab
·7 months agoUnless the item went through third-party authentication, eBay does not know what the seller actually shipped to the buyer or what the buyer actually received.
From eBay's point of view, either party could be lying. If the buyer is willing to ship the item back to the seller, eBay will get the buyer's money back, but that is still not proof of anything one way or the other.
Even if a buyer submits certified spectrographic analysis showing a coin is not composed of silver and is therefor not real, eBay has no way of knowing if the analysis was actually performed on the same item the seller shipped.
There are sellers willing to lie about what they ship, and also buyers willing to lie about what they receive, or what they return, or what they report.
kathiec
·7 months agoI don't have to know what your evidence was. I can cook up a very convincing set of "evidence" proving pretty much anything is fake. Something can be totally convincing and also not true. That's the dilemma eBay has.
And btw, it would take far more than your explanation to reduce me to a deer in the headlights.
msha3839
·7 months agoUnbelievable….so you knew, most likely ,coins are counterfeit but bought them anyway…🙉🙈..
kathiec
·7 months ago@rhiggsbear
The problem with fakes on eBay is that there's no way eBay can employ experts in every item sold here. Nor can they trust "experts" who report listings as fake. They have no idea of that person's credentials or if it's just a competitor trying to shut down the competition.
What eBay does have is a Money Back Guarantee. When 'not as described' cases are opened against a seller it's not just a way to get a refund. Sellers get defects for every case opened, and it doesn't take too many of those before a seller is suspended. As for eBay "know[ing] the listing I purchased from is selling fakes as they had to reimburse me my money", that's not the case. EBay finds in buyers' favor 99% of the time; they do so without determining whether the item is actually fake. In fact, they can't make that determination, since they never physically have the item to examine.
rudy2828
·7 months agoLook at the counterfeit forever stamps that are listed. Trying to stop these guys is like whack-a-mole. Poor moles... They never hurt anyone.
12345jamesstamps
·7 months ago'counterfeit forever stamps'...I have never seen any for sale.
And I do buy stamps on eBay.
ccomic
·7 months agoHow do you know you haven’t seen them? What if they are made on the exact type of machine used to make the real ones?
soh.maryl
·7 months agoYou knew they were probably fake, but went ahead and bought them any way, and it's eBay's fault that they were indeed fake?
If you opened an item not as described case, you should have been made whole, either by the seller or by eBay, have never heard of the scenario that you describe.
Sorry this happened to you.
rhiggsbear
OP7 months ago"it's eBay's fault that they were indeed fake?"
LOL - show me where I am blaming eBay for them being fakes?????
The whole issue is eBay now knows they are fakes based upon the evidence I submitted and they continue to let this fraudulent seller sell his fakes, in violation of eBay's own policies! By the way, when I bought, the seller had a 100% positive feedback. So, he appeared to be a "trusted" seller. It was after I place the order the negative feedbacks started showing up. And now it appears eBay is removing negative feedbacks. So, can anyone actually trust eBay's feedback system and is a seller really a trusted seller????
FYI - this seller, as of today, has sold over 1200 of these fakes. But I guess eBay really doesn't care as they are making money off their fees from these fakes. I myself think it is irresponsible to what boils down to encouraging this type of behavior by not acting I do now know there is no sense report fakes, or any other **bleep** listing as eBay does not care.
eburtonlab
·7 months agoBy the way, when I bought, the seller had a 100% positive feedback. So, he appeared to be a "trusted" seller.
Plenty of scammers have 100% feedback -- at first. It takes more than a number to make a seller "trusted".
Rather than looking just at the feedback percentage, cautious buyers should look at many factors, including how long the seller has actually been selling similarly-valued items, how much of the seller's feedback is from actual buyers, and how experienced those buyers are. Looking at other items the seller is selling now or has sold before can be a big clue as to what the seller is doing. Drastic changes in seller behavior might be signs of an account that has been hijacked, for instance. Positive feedback for buying, or for selling doll clothes or fishing lures does not tell you much about the seller's experience with selling collectible coins or expensive electronics.
Even if a seller can get some negatives removed, that won't make an inexperienced seller account appear more experienced.
soh.maryl
·7 months agoSorry -- Should have been more clear: You are blaming eBay for allowing fakes to be listed. No one employed by eBay evaluates items that are listed for sale here. But you know that.
sammiea1460
·7 months ago"I went ahead and bought some knowing the were probably fake and they were."
Why are you upset at ebay?
eburtonlab
·7 months ago@rhiggsbear
Counterfeit items are not allowed to be listed on eBay at all. No one is authorized to sell counterfeit items. That fact alone does not stop some people from trying to sell them, however.
The problem is that unscrupulous or uninformed sellers can list genuine items and then deliver counterfeit items.
It is not always possible to look at a listing and know in advance exactly what, if anything, the seller intends to deliver. For one thing, a scammer can simply copy a listing from a genuine seller, using a genuine photo of a genuine item.
Except for a few specific categories of items that go through authentication, eBay never sees what the seller ships or the what the buyer receives, so there is nothing for eBay to check unless someone complains about what was received by invoking eBay's money back guarantee.
Sellers are responsible for the descriptions they provide, and buyers should not assume that eBay screens the listings in advance.
As long as counterfeits exist and there are folks trying to sell them, buyers will still have to be on the lookout for them, and avoid deals that are obviously too-good-to-be-true, whether they are being sold by accounts registered overseas or by domestic sellers wittingly or unwittingly buying counterfeits from overseas to sell here.
Buyers that doubt their ability to distinguish a genuine article from a counterfeit one should only consider purchasing from trustworthy sellers that have an established reputation for delivering exactly what was described, and should avoid deals that are too-good-to-be-true, or deals that are offered by inexperienced sellers that might disappear soon after the transaction is made, or else be prepared to get items authenticated by trusted sources within thirty days to be able to take advantage of eBay's money back guarantee.
rhiggsbear
OP7 months agoYes, what you state is the obvious but does not address what I posted. eBay should know the listing I purchased from is selling fakes as they had to reimburse me my money. Plus, there are all the feedbacks stating they are fakes. No doubt these purchasers have also went though the process of getting reimbursed through eBay's money back guarantee.
Then there is the fact my negative review was removed. Why? That only encourages fraudulent sellers to keep doing what they do. Frankly, I will not buy any precious metals, coins, or other higher dollar item from eBay anymore. It is not worth the hassle when a purchase goes south!
rhiggsbear
OP7 months agoI did report the listing and here is what they said:
"
Hello rhiggsbear,
Thanks again for reporting the listing(s) you found.
What happened:
We looked into your report and didn’t find the listing to be in violation of our policy. This determination was made using automation or artificial intelligence.
If you reported content that isn’t listed below, we’ll send a separate email once we’ve made a decision.
So, even though I explained I had purchased these items, found them to be fake, had to have eBay reimbursement because the seller tried to scam me, they feel everything is ok. Good grief, eBay has hit a new low. No wonders sales have tanked so much. I am sure buyers are avoiding eBay like the plague!