Counterfeit items and trafficking together countries?
I am looking for some advice on what to do with a "cell phone" that was shipped by a seller to someone else and was ultimately determined by a tech at an official company to be a counterfeit.
The problem is that the shipment came from South Korea and the seller wants it shipped to China from the US for a refund, the item Is a counterfeit and checking the laws, there is 18 USC 2320 which makes it federal crime to do that.
I have already reported and taken this up with Ebay but they are of no help.
27 comments
klm5660
OP2 years agoUpdate to this story: The credit card company and lawyers are still investigating this case. The credit card company isn't of much help and thinks its cool to have something China desperately wants, they may take a year to fully investigate and mediate this case with ebay.
I don't have the item and don't want any of the legal drama.
The item is significantly INAD and was sent to someone else, it was determined to be a counterfeit by the manufacturer's official in the US thus far and I'm not touching it.
I've incurred a lot of legal and other expenses in addition to the original purchase price.
house*of*paws
·2 years ago@klm5660
I was the victim of this scam FIVE separate times within a 2-month period. The purchases were made from Amazon and eBay … and were shipped by USPS, FedEx, and UPS (in different cases).
I received my refunds from my credit card company by providing letters from the shipping companies that stated that my name and address was NOT on the packages associated with the tracking numbers I was given.
I did NOT contact an attorney. My refunds were processed while I was on the phone with the agent from my credit card company.
I received help in understanding the scam initially by posting a question in the eBay Community … and am now an expert on the scam myself. 😋
I’m afraid you must have complicated a relatively simple problem into an enigma if your refund is a year away. I’m so sorry to hear that. ☹ï¸
klm5660
OP2 years agoSorry to hear that, I ve had simpler disputesliie yours settled by other credit card companies.
This case is a lot more complex, it involves international law and other factors along with a counterfeit device (I don't know what else it may be) and government agencies I'd rather not deal with without legal counsel.
I just thought I was ordering a simple legitimate cell phone. Personally I wouldn't never order from a Chinese seller.
The listing oriignally didn't say it was from a Chinese seller and I specifically excluded them from the initial search i did to find that item, so I still suspicious on how a non Chinese seller became a Chinese seller.
campanaelia
·2 years agoThe filter for locations is only for the item location, you need to view the sellers feedback page to see where the seller is registered
house*of*paws
·2 years agoHi @klm5660
Since you say you reported the issue to your credit card company … it no longer matters what eBay may have asked you to do had you continued a claim with eBay.
You now follow through with your credit card company and provide them with whatever evidence they need to show that the item was never delivered to you.
You probably are in the best place to get your refund since you easily can talk to a credit card agent on the phone to explain exactly what happened. You no longer have to deal with the seller.
[There’s no need to debate whether or not it’s legal to return the item to China … since you have no item to return. That was an unnecessary tangent.]
klm5660
OP2 years agoi hope the credit card company comes through.
I was looking for legal advice on what else I could do to recover my losses and there was a lot of miscommunication, for some reason a lot of people thought the counterfeit cell phone was actually a genuine cell phone and that I had it and I probably wouldn't get caught breaking federal law.
house*of*paws
·2 years ago@klm5660
I understand that you were asking for legal advice about returning an item that was never in your possession. It didn’t matter whether the item was a cellphone, a counterfeit device, or a banana. You had received nothing … so you can’t return anything. 🙂
gone.c-33
·2 years agoHow would you end up violating US federal law and in jail for asking someone else in Korea to ship an item back to China?
klm5660
OP2 years agoUm. The seller is asking ME to traffik the item from South Korea to China
gone.c-33
·2 years agoUnless we’re talking about a taser that looks like a cell phone, just return the device and get your money back.
Its not unlawful to RETURN a counterfeit…
klm5660
OP2 years agoFrom my understanding the device was officially determined to be a counterfeit, during testing it does function but its exact nature and what it possesses or does hasn't been determined.
I am not going to export a potentially illegal item from South Korea to China, it's just not happening. If you want to sign an contract taking full legal liability including the possibility of federal prison time and fines to return that for us, you're welcome to do so and I would appreciate your help but I would not recommend you do that either.
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@klm5660,
"Have you read my original post thoroughly?"
Yes we did and nowhere in it did you mention it was nothing more than a counterfeit phone. You have let out other partial information in dribs `n drabs in a few of your other replies, but still have not given us or any attorney enough to go on, to give sound legal advice. 10 hours after I replied you wrote
"The seller shipped the item to someone else, it was an address different than the one I gave on the order, I have no idea why the seller did that unless they wanted the item to intentionally bounce".
That would be an item not received dispute, if you never received the item.
"An "overly helpful government official" helped find the item and bring it to the manufacturer for testing".
The "government official " was a post office employee, they only would retrieve the item from who ever received it, if that person called or brought the item in and said we received something we did not order. FYI, Post office employees Are Not traditional Federal Employees since the USPS is only a quasi federal agency.
Basically they had no right to do what they did, "send it for testing". I have never heard of a Mfr. receiving and testing a piece of electronic equipment of any kind, within a few days. On average the turn around time is 30-60 days. However, if they or an authorized dealer are given a serial number they can determine over the phone whether or not an item. is a counterfeit.
"It's not a "cell phone". It's a device that mimics a cell phone but according to the manufacturer who tested it determined it's not a device that they make, it's allegisly a counterfeit, it's not a cell phone".
Did no one tell you what the device actually was? I have heard of spy/nanny cams, or tracking devices that are made to look like cell phones. Those in and of them selves are not illegal, but how they are used by someone, to gather information can be illegal. Then there are the phones advertised to be a given Mfr.'s item which are not, and are counterfeit items.
In looking at your feedback left. There is a negative for a seller whose item locations are given as HK, China. HK standing for Hong Kong. In the comment you say the item was sent to the wrong address, and you spent weeks and your own money tracking it down. Which to me indicates you may be past the 30 day time frame for filing an ebay dispute through regular channels. Any money you spent other than for the item its shipping cost and sales tax, cannot be refunded to you.
That being said, if there is still some of the 30 days left, you may have one more option left open to you, since the item was not addressed to you, which is a fake tracking number scam, that ebay has trouble dealing with, because of the privacy policies of shipping agencies. Fortunately, the USPS is the easiest one to deal with.
That option would be to contact ebay through one of their social media sites. Before you do, you will need to contact the "overly helpful govt. official" if they are a postal employee and get them to write you a note on USPS stationary, stating that the package was not addressed to the address given on the Order details. Do not ask them to give the actual label address, they cannot give it out. They need to print their name and sign and date the note. There are more details on what to do after you have the note in the link below. Once you open it click on the Go to Best Answer button. The 4th & 5th paragraphs explain what you need to do to get a refund, and you will not have to send the item back.
https://community.ebay.com/t5/Buying/Fake-Tracking-information/m-p/34266951#M475809
For future reference you need to know that, while many items are made in China for Brand Name Mfr.'s, chinese sellers are NOT allowed to sell them outside of China. Something the chinese ignore often in attempts to scam people. Had you looked at the seller's country of registry on their feedback profile page, you would have seen they registered from China. FYI, It is not against the law to return a counterfeit item to the original sender. The ITAR regs, do not apply in these situations.
klm5660
OP2 years agoThat's not exactly what happened.
Ebay community rules prevent us from discussing specific names and seller user IDs for example, that's why I didn't use specifics.
I NEVER RECEIVED ANYTHING FROM THE SELLER, PERIOD.
There was a suspicious device sent to an "invalid address" (that's roughly what the postal employee told me) from South Korea, it was given to a neighbor's in town I knew who the official suspected it was intended to be for.
Note that does not mean it was intended for that person or me. None the less, the device was brought to the manufacturer and (as I mentioned) tested by officials there and determined to be a "counterfeit".
I have not personally touched or examined the device and only suspect it may have been something the seller might have sent from South Korea to get bounced to China.
I haven't gotten anywhere with Ebay so I took it up with the credit card company. So from what I understand its out of Ebay's hands at this point.
As I said earlier, I'm asking for advice on lawful actions I can take at this point. I can't return something not in my possession that may be illegal to export to China.
kathiec
·2 years agoAll we're telling you is that eBay won't force a refund unless the phone is returned. What you do with that information is totally in your hands.
klm5660
OP2 years agoWhat phone? Have you read my original post thoroughly?
There is NO CELL PHONE for me to return to anyone.
The seller sent a device to someplace else in my town that an official intercepted and suspects may have been the sellers package.
The device was taken to the manufacturer and determined NOT to be a cell phone. Its function is uncertain and I didn't authorize more money to do some CSI investigation on it.
Its officially a counterfeit and it was never addressed to me, it's not in my possession. I have nothing legal to return, even if i ship that device to a hostile country I'd be breaking US federal law.
I'm not doing that, I'm looking for lawful reasonable safe options that offend involve felonies, please
Unavailable member
·2 years agoThen file a chargeback with your credit card.
klm5660
OP2 years agoUm, I'm not going to send an illegal item to a foreign country just to get my money back. Are you for real? I mean, I'm not even being paid to traffik , and I wouldn't.
klm5660
OP2 years agoAgain, I wouldn't take the legal risk to break federal law just because no one else has been prosecuted. Hypothetically I could get prosecuted just as much as I could hypothetically not.
I have opened several cases and the seller has been spamming me with many "return labels" making claims about the device being something else.
I'm just not comfortable and need (legal) options and advice on what to do with this situation as I've already incurred a lot of legal expenses already. The seller isn't willing to refund any of that.
Unavailable member
·2 years agoIf you don't want to return it to get your money back, then there's nothing more that can be done.
klm5660
OP2 years agoIt's not a "cell phone". It's a device that mimics a cell phone but according to the manufacturer who tested it determined it's not a device that they make, it's allegisly a counterfeit, it's not a cell phone.
kathiec
·2 years agoYou're complicating the issue with hypotheticals that have nothing to do with your issue. There is zero case law of a buyer in the US being prosecuted for returning a counterfeit item. The only cases of sellers being prosecuted are a very few large-scale US-based seller/manufacturers. So no, if you return the phone IPR agents won't pound on your door in the middle of the night and cart you off to jail.
So if you want a refund you'll need to open an item not as described case with eBay. Ebay will require the seller to pay for return shipping upfront. Since the tracked shipping eBay requires is quite expensive to either South Korea or China, few sellers will provide those funds. If they don't, you can ask eBay to step in, they'll refund without requiring a return, and you can destroy the phone.
mudshark61369
·2 years ago@klm5660,
"I am looking for some advice on what to do with a "cell phone" that was shipped by a seller to someone else and was ultimately determined by a tech at an official company to be a counterfeit".
Do you mean you had the phone shipped to a friend or family member. If that is the case the return shipping would have to be calculated from their location.
The second issue is how long after the phone was delivered, was it discovered to be counterfeit or not as described. You only have 30 days from the date of delivery to file an item not as described (INAD) dispute. FYI, there are 2 reasons why the item is INAD, in this case. It was counterfeit, and the item location was misrepresented.
For not as described disputes, once one is filed, the seller has to respond within 3 days by either sending you a return shipping label or a full refund. Because they are in a different country they can't buy postage from the U.S. for the return. They can request that you get a return shipping estimate using a service that has tracking. Then they either send you the funds, within few days, or from the dispute you can ask ebay to step in.
You need to read the terms and time frames of ebay's Money Back Guarantee. There is a link to the policy below the payment method icons under the Shop with confidence header on the listing page.
klm5660
OP2 years agoThe seller shipped the item to someone else, it was an address different than the one I gave on the order, I have no idea why the seller did that unless they wanted the item to intentionally bounce. An "overly helpful government official" helped find the item and bring it to the manufacturer for testing.
This happened in less than a few days (within 30 days), so its within the return period.
But the problem is that they determined the item to be a counterfeit and I'm concerned about ITAR and other US export laws involving a device that is behaving very differently from what it was advertised that came from Korea and the seller wants it exported ("returned") to China.
There are several US federal laws and other export regulations I don't want to be any defendant of.
The seller offered to "send my friend to come to your home to pick it up" so I gave him the address to Verizon where the phone they shipped to and determined to be a counterfeit but he never showed up
Unavailable member
·2 years agoSince the seller is not in the US, In order to return the item you would need to talk with the seller and make arrangements to get your Paypal email address to them to send you funds to return the item so you can be refunded.
There is no crime in returning the item for a refund. That statute pertains to selling. You aren't selling it.
klm5660
OP2 years agoCan "assault weapons", Itar regulated technology, firearms, and schedule 3 drugs be "returned" to other countries as long as the seller was selling it?
Unavailable member
·2 years agoThis discussion is about a cell phone. Weapons and drugs are not part of the conversation.
Unavailable member
·2 years agoWhy wouldn’t the seller be able to send a printable label to the buyer? I can’t imagine that a buyer would be required to open a PayPal account just for a return. And now that we have managed payments, isn’t this nonsense about having a seller send funds for a return label a thing of the past?