Universal Postal Union

[themovieandtvstoreonline]

Ebay want us to stay in the Universal Postal Union, but from what I understand this is what allows Chinese sellers to ship to the U.S.A for way less than we can ship domestically or even internationally.

This also seems to work for the U.K who offer items with very low shipping thus competing with many US E-Commerce sellers.

If this stops China and others from getting super low shipping that we can't compete with I'm all for leaving.

Does anyone know if this is the case?

[whatmorefabric]

The low shipping from China benefits manufacturers and retailers.    There are a heck of a lot more of those in the US who would be upset if rates went up than on line sellers.

[johnrj1226]

Yeah but  when the  shoe is on the other foot those  those looking for a level playing field in shipping rates from China to  the US will be  happy.  One way programs never work seem to work work out very good.

China  has been developing in a big way since the mid 70's and invited the world to open up manufacturing sites all over  China and educate them on the worlds technology & production methods and our universities are full of excellent Chinese students.  "There were more than 360,000 Chinese students in the United States in the 2017-2018 school year".  Or 3  times as many as there were in the 9  years prior.

[beautifulbeauty2012]

You are correct. China is taking advantage of third world status, which allows them to abuse USPS ( in the end, we, the US sellers and buyers suffer from frequent rate hikes). Ebay wants as many Chinese sellers as possible on the platform, so it is against leaving the Union.

[richard1rst]

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@themovieandtvstoreonline wrote:

Ebay want us to stay in the Universal Postal Union, but from what I understand this is what allows Chinese sellers to ship to the U.S.A for way less than we can ship domestically or even internationally.

This also seems to work for the U.K who offer items with very low shipping thus competing with many US E-Commerce sellers.

If this stops China and others from getting super low shipping that we can't compete with I'm all for leaving.

Does anyone know if this is the case?

---

Trump made a comment earlier about withdrawing from the UPU due to China’s postal advantage. That is probably what eBay is responding to.

The UPU overseas all international mail everywhere in the world.

What would happen to all the mail we send internationally if we withdraw from the UPU? Better to fix the problem than to walk away which will NOT fix the problem..

As a sidebar Trump is also apparently working on getting the “third world status” removed from China which will/should wipe out their postal advantages. It is that “third world status” that was granted eons ago when China was still a more or less backwater country. They have fought hard to keep that status “grandfathered” in to their advantage even as they have moved to a first world country. It no longer applies and should be terminated.

The mills of the Gods grind exceedingly slow.

[richard1rst]

Addendum:

On the other hand you may be reading way too much into Trump’s threat to leave the UPU. Trump is essentially a businessman not a politician. He is more interested in negotiating a deal than in settling for the typical political non-comprise and false promises.

The ultimate goal is to take away China’s preferred Third World Status which they no longer need but cling to for the advantage it gives them.

So the first thing any negotiator does is to make an outrageous demand and paint a thoroughly unacceptable outcome to shock others into coming to the table in order to work out a real and practical deal. ‘Cause the alternative is chaos. RE “The art of the deal”

Think of it as the classic threat to “take me ball and go home” knowing full well that the others want to continue to play so they will negotiate something to keep you there. Advantage? Ball holder.

[anthology-of-treasures]

Here is news story that explains much.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-made-the-right-call-to-withdraw-from-the-universal-pos...

In 1969 there was an amendment to the UPU in which more developed countries decided to give underdeveloped countries a discount on what they charge to complete the delivery of their mail. This was an effort to help poor countries sell items to wealthier countries via the mail system.

eBay was the driving force behind a 2010 trilateral agreement between eBay, the Chinese postal system (China Post), and the U.S. postal system (USPS). eBay officials attended the ceremony that celebrated the signing of the agreement, including Jeff Liao, CEO for eBay's Greater China and head of eBay's Asia-pacific cross-border trade. Liao is quoted as saying "The collaboration will make the most of the advantages of the three while helping expand eBay's profits".

Soon other companies such as Amazon copied eBay!

The public was told USPS would make money form these Chinese packages to offset declining first class mail volume. THAT WAS A LIE! USPS lost money on every one. According to the article above this cost $300 million in loses for one year. By the time the 1 year withdrawal process is completed USPS will have lost at least $3 billion over 10 years. To make up for these loses USPs raises its rates, which in turn makes more money for eBay via FVF fees.

This Washington Post article discusses how eBay was able to broker the 2010 agreement partially based based upon earlier postal treaties under the guise of "treaty mail". This article states USPS later made similar deals with Hong Kong (2011), Singapore (2012), and South Korea (2013).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/09/12/the-postal-service-is-losing-millions-a-...

eBay could put a stop to this by terminating their agreement with USPS and China Post at any time.

How low of a company do you have to be to line your own pocket with a program intended to help poor people? China was not a underdeveloped country in 2010. It was a dictatorship that has killed millions of its own people.

Some more details.

http://www.nerdylorrin.net/jerry/postages/ebay.html

The US Congress is suppose to have oversight over USPS yet this same Congress excepts political contributions form companies such as eBay, UPS, FedEx, Amazon and others.

Its entirely eBay's fault that USPS loses money on eBay Chinese vendors packages.

[anthology-of-treasures]

Thats really not how it works. Large buyers are not having their items shipped over on a one-by-one basis via the postal system. They buy items in bulk and have them shipped over in multiple cargo containers.

[anthology-of-treasures]

See my post below.

This bankrupting USPS!

[anthology-of-treasures]

The amendment to the UPU was completed in 1969. China was not a developing country even in 1969. It has already exploded a hydrogen bomb and had engaged in a war against the United Nations in Korea.

That is really it moot point because it was eBay that decided to misuse this agreement by signing a 2010 agreement between itself and USPS and China Post. eBay can stop this any time! eBay and companies who later copied eBay refuse so the only way to make they stop abusing a program intended to help poor people is to withdrawal from the UPU.

But wait what else is eBay doing? In addition to the diagram below they are also selling private insurance. This causes USPS to loose revenue which means they raise rates. They are also now hiding shipping services from buyers.

[orangehound]

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@richard1rst wrote:

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As a sidebar Trump is also apparently working on getting the “third world status” removed from China which will/should wipe out their postal advantages.

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It won't work.  If China loses that status, all their products will just start "transhipping" out of India, Vietnam or Malasia.

When the US took action against the watered-down Chinese honey industry by imposing ultra-high tariffs several years ago, the Chinese simply transshipped their diluted honey through India and other countries.

The shipping subsidy needs to be removed entirely.

[iamveronica]

That's exactly right!

The UPU (Universal Postal Union) is what is behind the subsidy that China and other countries receive from USPS. It is also the reason why our domestic rates on USPS keep going up as USPS has to make up for the subsidy.

Getting out of the UPU is the best thing that can happen to all of us US sellers!

I am all for getting out of it. It is a great thing!

[themovieandtvstoreonline]

Actually that is not correct, if a seller ships over a container of products then they have to be shipped within the US to buyers which means they have to pay USPS to get it from wherever their warehouse is to the end buyer.

So that involves customs clearance fees as well as warehousing.

What is actually happening is they ship right out of China one order at a time and it's very cheap for them to do this. My son collects anime figures and I've seen giant boxes arrived where they've charged just a few dollars.

The price they charge or effectively do not is incredibly low.

We sell on multiple platforms including "Jeff's little online store"

I've seen items being offered out of the UK to the USA  for $1.99 shipping and many out of China for free shipping.

It shouldn't be possible, only the UPU allows this and it needs fixing.

[anthology-of-treasures]

The 1969 amendment to the UPU DID NOT create cheap Chinese shipments.

Where were these packages from 1969 to 2009?

eBay was the driving force behind a 2010 trilateral agreement between eBay, the Chinese postal system (China Post), and the U.S. postal system (USPS). eBay officials attended the ceremony that celebrated the signing of the agreement, including Jeff Liao, CEO for eBay's Greater China and head of eBay's Asia-pacific cross-border trade. Liao is quoted as saying "The collaboration will make the most of the advantages of the three while helping expand eBay's profits".

eBay's lawyers found a clever way to exploit the language of the 1969 provision and other postal agreements. This can go away today if eBay decides to end its 2010 agreement. Ebay and other companies that copied eBay refuse. Politicians refuse to help Trump alter the existing UPU treaty to put a stop to this. In fact, all other politicians have ignored it. Trump took action months after being contacted by concerned citizens.

Congress, the same body that allowed China to be added as a developing country in 1969, is suppose to have oversight over USPS. But that is not possible as they accept money form eBay, Amazon, UPS, FedEx and. host of other companies. Dysfunctional postal officials said this was  a good idea in 2010, now they support Trump's efforts to put an end to it because its bankrupting them.

eBay knows this program is causing USPS to loose huge sums but they double down on efforts to keep the status quo. eBay and other companies that abused this program should be placed on a payment plan to replay USPS for their loses or have their postal discounts terminated.

[themovieandtvstoreonline]

Thanks that sheds some light on the subject and Ebay want us to write to our Congress people to stop it.

Not likely....