Empty Box Scam

[billiards74]

So, I sell (among other things) Rolex watches.

Last Tuesday evening, a customer having 60 or so feedbacks (all positive) makes a purchase for a $2700 Rolex. Promptly, Wednesday morning, I package up the watch, winding it, setting the time, and doing the final wipe-down to remove any residual fingerprints, and get it shipped out in a medium flat-rate box through the USPS.

The item was delivered on Friday at just at 3pm. Shows that it was signed for by the intended recipient. 

Friday night / Saturday morning (12:20 midnight), I get a message from the buyer saying he received an empty box. Naturally, I asked if he signed for it and if he himself opened it. No answer to those questions. I also asked for photos of EXACTLY what he received. He sends me 3 photos. 2 were of the inside of the box showing packing material, and one was of the top of the box where he cut through the shipping label and opened the box. In his initial statement he stated that he also "checked around the property and checked with the neighbors" to see if he could find the "merchandise".

So, being a Saturday, I could do nothing regarding opening a postal investigation. The watch was insured for the full sale price. So, just filing a claim with the PO wouldn't do much good without an official investigation.

Yesterday, I contacted both the police within HIS jurisdiction and the Post Office's inspector's office. This enraged the buyer. 

After learning that I had opened a case with the PO, he decided, last night, to open an SNAD case with eBay. He also stated that he had already acquired a police report.

In one of his responses, he threatened "since I know your address, I will harass you". Adding, " I wouldn’t be surprised to receive negative feedback which will also ruin your credibility as a perfect seller for the next 12 months.". I know, I know. Both violations of the TOS. That will be discussed with eBay when customer service opens.

He has maintained that he has no intention of complying or cooperating with any investigation since I won't just issue him a refund.

After going through his feedback, I've actually looked at the types of items he's been buying. Get this... 90% of the items he's been purchasing have been for $0.99 or less. Some are auctions for a actual penny that is for local pick-up only; guaranteeing positive feedback upon completion of the $0.01 sale!

I have reported him and he has since been turned over to eBay's "Buyer Risk Assessment Team" due to evidence of suspicious or fradulent activity.

I still have no Idea as to how this is going to play out. 

Words of advice or encouragement anyone?????

[beyondfab]

What's the insurance for?

[farmerphil2]

Here's one thing I might do--

A person these days spending(or thieving) that much money on a watch nowadays is doing it to say "Hey, look at what I'm wearing!" I'd be chasing down all their social media ID's and watching them the next couple of months for the day the person comes out and says "Hey, look at me" if they haven't done so already--

Phil

[llllady]

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@beyondfab wrote:
What's the insurance for?

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If the item is lost or damaged in transit.

[retrose1]

OP, I'm proud of you and am encouraging you to keep on the post office to investigate what this buyer is doing - using the PO to fraud someone - and them because you are going to be filing insurance claim on the amount.  I would also inform the buyer that you are going to be talking to his delivery person.  If the buyer is making a habit of this, his delivery person will end up being a witness against him since the buyer has to sign for the high dollar items.  The PO can also stop delivery to the house and start having them pick up their mail at a branch if there are repeated reports against the buyer. 

I would also keep on the police to start looking into the obvious theft of property - either by the guy or from his mail.  If they show up on his doorstep, it will not look good if he doesn't cooperate.

I would also check on some of the buyers other sellers and contact them to see if they, too are victims and get them to start reporting the buyer to the authorities.  The more the merrier.  And if the buyer hears about that, they might go past enraged and do something really stupid that will get you off.

Being the squeaky wheel works for scamming buyers, it might help you.

I am also hopeful by the OPs comment about how the investigation was kicked up to Risk Assessment.  I think the high dollar amount might be scaring ebay a little in the face that you have made all the reports.  ebay does not want to just fork over the buyers money and then have to deal with the seller appealing and having to give back the sellers money out of their own pocket.

[beyondfab]

What are the odds of a lost or damaged package?

[shesellsseashells73]

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@a_c_green wrote:

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@billiards74 wrote:

Yesterday, I contacted both the police within HIS jurisdiction and the Post Office's inspector's office. This enraged the buyer. 

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Of course it would, as you've brought unwanted attention on him, plus of course he has nothing to lose by being "enraged," as he'll definitely try any strategy that has any chance of making you back off.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the detail of that piece of electrical tape alone. It might be better to focus on the sheer preposterousness (Is that a word?) (Okay, yes, it is) of his main story, that the carrier and the recipient would go through the whole ritual of signing for a package without either one noticing that the package is clearly empty by weight, and has supposedly been sliced open on the bottom and then closed up again with electrical tape. I think when his local police detective learns those details, it'll raise both his eyebrows. (For a four-figure theft claim like this, I would definitely expect at least a basic level of investigation from both the postal inspector and local police.)

You may indeed end up eating the loss on this one. eBay may be of limited help; the USPS and local police might be a little better at putting pressure on the buyer to magically find the watch. Neither possibility feels really encouraging to me, but like the buyer and his supposed outrage, you have nothing to lose by following through on all your options open to you. Please keep us updated on this.

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Question.  Would having UPS pack the box for you on things of this value make a difference?  UPS has more muscle than we do as individuals...and we all know what Ebay will do.  

[a_c_green]

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@shesellsseashells73 wrote:

Question.  Would having UPS pack the box for you on things of this value make a difference?  UPS has more muscle than we do as individuals...and we all know what Ebay will do.  

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Heck, no. It doesn't take any particular skill to toss a Rolex into a small box and mail it, and UPS is not going to go to bat for you even if they were the ones who packed it before shipping. There doesn't seem to be much doubt that the item arrived just fine via USPS, and that the buyer is fibbing. It'll be up to the seller to continue the pressure on this, to see if he can get it resolved through either USPS or the local police. I doubt that eBay/PayPal are going to be of much help to the seller here, although I would love to be proven wrong on that.

[billiards74]

One step ahead of you.

BTW, no, I didn't send it registered mail. In this case, it wouldn't make a difference anyway. eBay - by their own admission - ONLY cares whether or not the buyer produces a police report.

[ecwolf]

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@banana-posts wrote:

This guy is probably looking at a federal felony charge if it's found he's committed fraud. He's already violated the TOS, so you could probably let him know that as any neg FB should be removed. 

You might also let the buyer know that his carrier is going to be brought into this to answer for an empty box on his watch. 

As a last resort, WHEN ebay automatically refunds him with your money. Contact your bank and file an unauthorized use of funds report. Depending on your bank, they will put the funds back into your account while they make their own investigation in concert with the USPS.

We, sellers are still consumers and have protections like anyone else. 

Anyone know where that famous post is? You know, the guy who said, "oh yes he does, he's got some explaining to do..." Referring to the carrier. This was from another empty box issue.

________________________________________

Day 9 - Lithium still having technical problems.

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This one?

http://community.ebay.com/t5/Selling/Conversation-with-buyer-who-told-they-received-empty-package/m-...

[shesellsseashells73]

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@a_c_green wrote:

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@shesellsseashells73 wrote:

Question.  Would having UPS pack the box for you on things of this value make a difference?  UPS has more muscle than we do as individuals...and we all know what Ebay will do.  

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Heck, no. It doesn't take any particular skill to toss a Rolex into a small box and mail it, and UPS is not going to go to bat for you even if they were the ones who packed it before shipping. There doesn't seem to be much doubt that the item arrived just fine via USPS, and that the buyer is fibbing. It'll be up to the seller to continue the pressure on this, to see if he can get it resolved through either USPS or the local police. I doubt that eBay/PayPal are going to be of much help to the seller here, although I would love to be proven wrong on that.

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Even if you purchase insurance through USPS?  Couldn't you then at least go back to the UPS person who packed as further evidence?  

[double2trouble]

The guy ain't looking at any charge, because it's impossible to prove the box was not empty.

[nowthatsjustducky]

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@*eponymous* wrote:

Smart sellers use registered mail with adult signature & restricted delivery, insured for full value, for expensive items such as a $2,700 Rolex watch.

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For a brief moment, I thought you were channeling sam... (based on the first two words).  But since the sentence did not have the phrase "don't buy insurance), I realized my error.  😄

[nowthatsjustducky]

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@billiards74 wrote:

So, I sell (among other things) Rolex watches.

Last Tuesday evening, a customer having 60 or so feedbacks (all positive)...

Words of advice or encouragement anyone?????

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Since no one else has touched on this, I will go ahead and point out that if he is buyer only, his feedback will always be all positive, since they can not receive negative or neutral feedback.

[chrysylys]

I still can't figure out why people list things over a hundred bucks or so here.

[shawk2011]

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@beyondfab wrote:
What are the odds of a lost or damaged package?

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It doesn't matter, the loss of just one high dollar item lost could seriously affect some smaller sellers.