Not Meissen

[habitatforhumanityejc-wa]

 Please see attached photo...this does not appear to be a Meissen mark but is highly ornate, finely painted porcelain...does anyone know the provenance of this double sword, raised mark?  Thank you!

[pixzee]

I am unfamiliar with this crossed sword imprint, but I am sorry to say, I doubt that the mark matters, imho.

This type of applied lace work is often called Dresden ware and was copied by many makers in Europe, Japan and America -all trying to claim some sort of uniqueness.

I would judge it by the quality of painting and mold.  The faces are well formed and nicely painted. But the rest of the painting is a bit standard. Overall this is nice. But there isn't a very big market for nice at this time, if that helps.

Dresden Lace Porcelain Dancing Couple in Fine Condition, nicely painted with gold accents.

[janetpjohn_la]

I've always thought it was Wales China, Japan, maybe from what I read on this site: https://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/resources/unidentified-companies/bone-china-lace/index.php
Janet

[pixzee]

Great reference Janetpjohn.

I usually go by quality before mark. Quality wise, this is a nice piece. In fine porcelain figurines, "nice" is a dirty word.

In fact I have seen outright forgeries in porcelain (there are so many) that are so well conceived I would prefer them over the originals, if just because of the price.

[maxine*j]

Maybe there's something I'm missing, but I'm not seeing this as "Dresden Lace."   I don't know how it may be done now, bur originally real fabric lace was dipped into the slip and applied to the figurine, and when the item was fired the fabric burned away leaving just the appearance of fragile lace, holes and all, a final effect like that in the figurine below. 

OP's figurine has some pretty ruffles, but I don't see the delicate open-work, real-lace effect I think of as "Dresden Lace."   But, then, this is eBay, so maybe the term is used really loosely.

 

[pixzee]

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@maxine*j wrote:

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OP's figurine has some pretty ruffles, but I don't see the delicate open-work, real-lace effect I think of as "Dresden Lace."   But, then, this is eBay, so maybe the term is used really loosely.

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I think that is one of the great misconceptions of Dresden lace, that is is only made from crocheted or needle work lace. The fact is, it is extremely difficult (nearly impossible) to make the lace curves shown above with only a porcelain applied ribbon of clay. In fact, Dresden lace is the technique of dipping a fine textile (how ever made) into slip and applying it to the figurine.

This particular work, all considered, looked like it was made that way. And since so many pieces coming out of Japan at the time, like the piece you showed, used actual lace, it is hard to imagine they would go through the immense trouble of using porcelain strips over dipped textile ribbon. That's my opinion, is all.

[maxine*j]

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@pixzee wrote:

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I think that is one of the great misconceptions of Dresden lace, that is is only made from crocheted or needle work lace.

This particular work, all considered, looked like it was made that way. And since so many pieces coming out of Japan at the time, like the piece you showed, used actual lace, it is hard to imagine they would go through the immense trouble of using porcelain strips over dipped textile ribbon. That's my opinion, is all.

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OK.  I can be comforted only by knowing that I'm one of a very great many people who share the misconception.  (Shared delusions are less worrisome, you know...  )

Can you help me understand the sentence that includes the phrase, "it is hard to imagine they would go through the immense trouble of using porcelain strips over dipped textile ribbon," because I don't know where the idea of porcelain strips over ribbons even came from. 

[pixzee]

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@maxine*j wrote:

 Can you help me understand the sentence that includes the phrase, "it is hard to imagine they would go through the immense trouble of using porcelain strips over dipped textile ribbon," because I don't know where the idea of porcelain strips over ribbons even came from. 

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My contention is that Dresden Lace is a technique, not a "look". Many dealers will call the lacy pieces, like you showed, Dresden lace and ignore the technique.

Porcelain is a very soft clay. It is difficult to handle (as in handle with your hands). It tends to droop and basically fall apart when worked in thin pieces. That is what makes thin porcelain, whether hand thrown or molded, such an exquisite and unique material.

The Dresden technique allows the artist to handle porcelain in a different way. Rather than rolling out the clay and cutting thin strips of material to shape and mold it to a figurine, say (which is inexorbitantly difficult but has been done by the greatest masters of the craft), Japanese factories used the Dresden technique.

In the Dresden technique, textile supports the slip (soft clay) where it would otherwise flatten out before hardening into place. As you noted, the fabric burns away during firing. I know of no other term for dipping a ribbon, like a binding tape, in porcelain slip, as this piece shows, as opposed to dipping lace. I would welcome someone explaining that term.

You are saying that Dresden lace is only "lace" dipped in porcelain?

I am saying that a ribbon of fabric dipped in procelain is also Dresden lace.

[maxine*j]

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@pixzee wrote:

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My contention is that Dresden Lace is a technique, not a "look". Many dealers will call the lacy pieces, like you showed, Dresden lace and ignore the technique.... 

You are saying that Dresden lace is only "lace" dipped in porcelain?

I am saying that a ribbon of fabric dipped in procelain is also Dresden lace.

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Yes, that's it.

People dip all sorts of things in porcelain slip (yarn, paper, leaves, you-name-it) and fire it to get what's left after the the burnables are gone, and I've just never heard it called "Dresden Lace" or "Dresden Lace technique."    I'll grant you that I don't know what it is called, though.

At the same time, no matter how it was achieved, or how far from Dresden it was decorated, for me a "Dresden Lace Figurine" is one with clothing that looks like it's made of, or at least trimmed with, lace. 

 That's all.  Just my take on it.

[casey768]

take a good look at the fingers,one of the features of Meissen  figurines is that it is all handpainted,handsculpted,and best way to tell is the fingers.

Meissen also have an office in NYC,you can ask them ,I am sure they will be happy to tell you.

Good luck 

[casey768]

sorry,this aint Meissen
https://search.aol.com/aol/image;_ylt=AwrJ61v.0CtbkxoABh5pCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBv...
but looks like a good quality Italian maker

[janetpjohn_la]

No one said it was Meissen.
Janet

[habitatforhumanityejc-wa]

Thanks so much, this link is very helpful, looks just like the mark on our piece!

[c*me*4*lefton*info]

Janet - There are enough similars on ebay at present so that I would consider an ID as Wales China a positive and unarguable ID.  I would post auction numbers but they are ongoing auctions and I try to refrain from doing that sort of thing.

[c*me*4*lefton*info]

Maxine - I totally agree with your comments here.

The OPs example is not porcelain (or "Dresden") lace. Mainly because no lace is involved in its manufacturing.  I agree terms are loosely used on ebay, especially among the uneducated, but I seldom (I would say rarely if ever) see the ruffles described as porcelain lace. I collect Lefton examples of porcelain lace and they sold maybe a dozen of such things, lady figurines ("Lace Lovelies") and ballerinas mainly. 

Lefton examples date to some of their earliest work, to the early 1950s including the last couple of years of the OJ (Occupied Japan) period. The Japanese manufacturer for Lefton examples is a company in Japan commonly called Kowa Toki. Kowa was perhaps the finest (that is arguable) maker of MIJ ceramic "giftware" items after WW2 and Lefton had a long, and at times an exclusive, relationship with the company (including most of he 1950s and into the 1960s). Kowa produced many things for Lefton, the porcelain lace figurines were only a part of that production.

I recently purchased on ebay a couple of Lefton's porcelain lace ballerinas (numbered in the low 700s). They were quite dirty and so I soaked them in water in an attempt to prepare them for a light cleaning to remove years of cigarette smoke and dust. I soaked them too long and one of the figurines fell into two pieces where it had been broken and glued back together. But in the process I learned something also. The porcelain lace became soft and pliable, much to my surprise. So I have to wonder if the porcelain lace was actually ever fired, perhaps it was just air dryed as we know if it were fired it would have remained rigid after soaking in water and it would not become pliable.

I do believe Japanese manufacturers other than Kowa used this porcelain lace technique but their work, and the quality of it, is much below the quality of work found in the Kowa Lefton examples (IMO).

Whatever the case, that is my take, a collector of such things take, on porcelain lace figurines Made in Japan after WW2. I make no claims about actual Dresden lace or how it was manufactured simply because I simply do not know and I do not collect the examples of that work, I collect MIJ examples. I do know enough about the Lefton examples that my thoughts on the matter were published (and acknowledged) in one of the Lefton collector books authored by Karen Barton, including the first publishing of a previously unknown and then newly discovered Lefton mark found on Kowa Lefton porcelain lace  figurines.

To paraphrase Lynyrd Skynyrd, "I know a little about (MIJ porcelain lace).... and baby I can guess the rest."

I'm c*me and I'm outta here.