01-05-2024 03:22 PM
Anyone know what this old emblem/patch signifies, or what organization it would have come from. Also, what category to list it? Google isn't helping me... Thanks for any help 🙂
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01-06-2024 09:08 AM - edited 01-06-2024 09:11 AM
Wait, hang on! Update!
This is the coat of arms of the Pamphili family. The name on the back is Doria Pamphili. The family survived into the 20th century as Doria-Pamphili, or Doria-Pamphili-Landi.
Pope Innocent X was baptized as Giovanni Battista Pamphili, and used his family arms when he became pope, which was the usual practice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamphili_family
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doria-Pamphili-Landi
01-05-2024 09:40 PM
01-06-2024 05:13 AM
This is the coat of arms of Pope Innocent X, who was pope from 1644-1655. The colors of the field are reversed. The bird is probably embroidered with silver thread, which was originally silver-white, but has tarnished to black.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Innocent_X
01-06-2024 08:34 AM - edited 01-06-2024 08:35 AM
I'm sure you've found the origin. I wonder what it was for / who wore it, though, if it is the Pope's coat of arms.
There are so many dfferences. The reversed colors, the crown is not the papal tiara, etc. And would anything in official use ever lack the keys? (I've forgotten what little I used to know about heraldry, and that was most heraldry of the UK, anyhow, but I think that's a ducal crown on OP's piece.)
Unusual, to me, but I make no claims as to how Vatican heraldry works.
The writing on the back seems to say "Doris something-or-other," but I cant quite make it out. I assume it's the owner's name...?
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01-06-2024 08:50 AM
Yes, I noticed all the discrepancies as well. According to wikipedia, the papal tiara and the crossed keys have been used since about 1450.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_coats_of_arms
Based on the condition and technique, I would guess this was made in the late 19th or early 20th century. At that time, the embroiderer would have been carefully trained in technique, but the designs may not have been drawn by someone who was trained in heraldry, as it was not common knowledge by then. The fleur de lys and the dove are not that well drawn, and the placement of the charges is rather awkward. This may explain some of the discrepancies.
I can't really think why the arms of Pope Innocent X would have been needed at such a late date. That made me think that this might have a training piece, or an example piece that could be used to show clients how a custom made piece would be made. The embroidery itself is well done.
01-06-2024 08:58 AM
Most examples of this coat of arms from historic times do show the tiara and keys, but I found this example from 1711 which does not. If they were working from an engraving like this, then it would have been easy to switch the colors of the field, and it would explain the awkward proportions as well.
01-06-2024 09:08 AM - edited 01-06-2024 09:11 AM
Wait, hang on! Update!
This is the coat of arms of the Pamphili family. The name on the back is Doria Pamphili. The family survived into the 20th century as Doria-Pamphili, or Doria-Pamphili-Landi.
Pope Innocent X was baptized as Giovanni Battista Pamphili, and used his family arms when he became pope, which was the usual practice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamphili_family
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doria-Pamphili-Landi
01-06-2024 02:22 PM - edited 01-06-2024 02:24 PM
@lacemaker3 wrote:Wait, hang on! Update!
This is the coat of arms of the Pamphili family. The name on the back is Doria Pamphili. The family survived into the 20th century as Doria-Pamphili, or Doria-Pamphili-Landi.
Pope Innocent X was baptized as Giovanni Battista Pamphili, and used his family arms when he became pope, which was the usual practice.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamphili_family
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doria-Pamphili-Landi
BINGO!
So that is what is written on the back, right? Talk about hidden in plain sight. 😄
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01-06-2024 02:53 PM - edited 01-06-2024 02:58 PM
Well, if "Pamphili" had been written a bit more legibly on the back of the embroidery, I might have spotted it from the beginning. But, in my defense, how many people know or pay attention to the names that popes used before they became pope?
So, really the only discrepancy that is left is the swapped colors in the field.
The head of the Pamphili family was/is a prince, which explains the crown instead of the papal tiara. This would have been the pope's arms if they used the tiara and the crossed keys, but without them they are arms of the Pamphili family. There are a lot of mis-attributed pictures of the Pamphili arms online, too. Mis-labelled as the arms of the pope. {I think I have mixed up plurals and singular in this paragraph, but I don't feel like trying to sort it out.}
01-06-2024 03:09 PM
And I thought it said, maybe, "Doris." 😄
I thought about trying to work on the image to see if I could make the writing something I could read but, frankly, I am getting tired of spending my time doing that.
Anyhow, you got it figured out!
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01-06-2024 03:09 PM
Now I have to wonder if OP will ever see this explanation, or acknowledge it.
SIGH.
It's so discouraging.
01-06-2024 03:12 PM
01-06-2024 04:03 PM
Thank you!
01-06-2024 04:05 PM
You guys are awesome! Thanks for your efforts 😀
01-06-2024 04:05 PM
Thank you for your help! 😀