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Community Member
Posts: 3,079
Registered: ‎10-04-2005

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to laddieboyblue

Well folks the city that the democrats built, yes the city of Baltimore, hit a new record for murders in May; 43. Isn't that something?  I guess since the wonderful mayor of Baltimore told the police to give the rioters space, we see the results.  It's really quite sad.  Personally I think the mayor should resign and be prosecuted.  Any word on the six police officers charged?

 

 

 

Politicians are the lowest form of life; Liberal democratic politicians are the lowest form of politician

General George S. Patton

Community Member
Posts: 3,079
Registered: ‎10-04-2005

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to southernstargems

Why do our bombing missions against ISIS not very successful?  It could be because our pilots are micromananged by the WH.  One pilot said he had a group of ISIS fighters in his gunsight but was told not to shoot or bomb.  I guess the WH is afraid of bad publicity if civilians are killed.  So meanwhile the ISIS fighters can go on beheading civilians.  Sing well a day.  No wonder we're losing.

 

 

Politicians are the lowest form of life; Liberal democratic politicians are the lowest form of politician

General George S. Patton

Community Member
Posts: 1,831
Registered: ‎12-17-2006

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to southernstargems

southernstargems wrote:

I have been hearing about what has been going on in Baltimore.  Why is it that these race riots always seem to occur in cities that have been controlled by Democrats for decades?


Well, now we have the answer.

 

Protesters went to Ferguson for a PAYCHECK from ACORN are now ANGRY they aren’t being paid! LOL!
http://therightscoop.com/protesters-went-to-ferguson-for-a-paycheck-from-acorn-are-now-angry-they-ar...

 

This is simply amazing.  We kind of suspected that there was something else going on behind the Ferguson protests, but only now do we have absolute evidence that there were shady organizations PAYING for protesters to show up.  How do we know?  Because those same protesters are angry that they were promised money and it hasn’t been paid yet!

 

Which is, in itself, hilarious:

 

Hired protesters with the Black Lives Matter movement have started a #CutTheCheck hashtag and held a sit-in at the offices for the successor group to the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) in Missouri after the group allegedly stopped paying them.

 

FrontPage Magazine reports that Missourians Organizing for Reform and Empowerment (MORE) has been paying protesters $5,000 a month to demonstrate in Ferguson.  Last week, hired protesters who haven’t been paid held a sit-in at MORE’s offices and posted a demand letter online.

 

MORE is the re-branded Missouri branch of ACORN, which filed for bankruptcy in late 2010, FrontPage reported. MORE and other groups supporting the Black Lives Matter movement have received millions of dollars from billionaire financier George Soros.

 

The group Millennial Activists United posted a letter on their blog demanding MORE “cut the checks” to demonstrators.

 

“Early in the movement, non-profit organization MORE, formerly known as the St. Louis chapter of ACORN, and local St. Louis organization Organization for Black Struggle created a joint account in which national donors from all over the world have donated over $150,000 to sustain the movement,” the letter read.  “Since then, the poor black [sic] of this movement who served as cash generators to bring money into St. Louis have seen little to none of that money.

 

SO there’s absolutely no doubt that part of the reason that Ferguson flared up was because protesters were being paid to be there.  That makes you wonder – how many are being paid in Baltimore?  How many more will be paid in the future?  And if the media doesn’t report this, isn’t it admitting that it’s all part of a big show they’re compliant with?

 

It’s unfortunate how obvious the answers are.

 

I guess they need the money in order to purchase the extended warranties for the electronics that they stole.

Community Member
Posts: 956
Registered: ‎01-25-2003

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to silverfox82


For any students of international politics here, recorded live video of the BBC TV coverage of the recent (7 May 2015) UK general election results as they came in.  One of the most exciting election nights for many years. The result was totally unexpected.  A hung parliament had been forecast by all the opinion pollsters - they were all wrong.  The Conservatives (Tories) were returned to government with a small, but clear majority.  The Labour party was obliterated in Scotland by the Scottish National Party (SNP), who want independence from England.  See many well known politicians losing their parliamentary seats. The leaders of the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats resign. The leader of UKIP (UK Independence (from Europe) Party) resigns - and is re-instated... You couldn't make it up...

Part1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EYUkV-SHFw

Part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXHxqOkWlh0

Final results charts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

Any questions, just ask.

 

 

 

Community Member
Posts: 524
Registered: ‎12-14-2008

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to odiescoins

Owen, wishing you a respectful memorial day on this solemn occasion.

Community Member
Posts: 3,946
Registered: ‎06-16-2006

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to ted_200

Memorial Day is here again so to me it's time for my reprise of this message:

 

us-flag.jpg

 

This day reminds me it's time to start another year of honoring and supporting our veterans:

 

It's time to say "Thank You" anytime you meet one.

 

It's time to say "Welcome Home" if they make it back alive.

 

It's time to help a Wounded Warrior get back into the community
and, if possible, help him/her find a job.

 

It's time to go to a Fallen Warrior's funeral in your home town
even if you don't know the person well.

 

It's time to go to your local vets club, buy a round and listen to their stories.
For many, it's all they have left.

 

It's time to help our homeless veterans rebuild their lives.

 

It's time to do more than say you support our troops.

 

Contact your local and state governments to let them know
what you think about our country's treatment of our veterans
particularly those with Traumatic Brain Injury.

 

It's time to remember that our veterans need our support 365 days of every year.
Tributes are nice and needed. Actions are even nicer and needed more.
______________________________________________________________________

"The willingness with which our young people are likely to serve in any war,
no matter how justified, shall be directly proportional as to how they perceive
the veterans of earlier wars were Treated and Appreciated by their nation."
(George Washington)


If we desire to secure peace, . . . it must be known, that we are at all times ready for war.
George Washington
Community Member
Posts: 3,079
Registered: ‎10-04-2005

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to laddieboyblue

The only way to stop ISIS is to put boots on the ground.  The POTUS refuses to recognize this and it is not a winning strategy.  We must put boots on the ground. 

Community Member
Posts: 3,079
Registered: ‎10-04-2005

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to odiescoins

Just like Al Queda was on the run? Yes the fall of Ramadi.  Just another bump in the road.  Before you know it Iraq will have been conquered.  The JV team.  Good to see this thread has come alive again.

 

 

 

 

Politicians are the lowest form of life, Liberal Democratic politicians are the lowest form of politician

General George S. Patton

Community Member
Posts: 3,946
Registered: ‎06-16-2006

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to ted_200

A quick summary of recent political news:

 

Obama claims that ISIS is on the defensive. I guess to him attacking and capturing a major city is a defensive operation.

 

Obama claims the loss of Ramadi is no big deal even though it lies only 70 miles from Baghdad and sets the stage for the capture of the Iraqi capital.

 

The Pentagon says there is no need to evaluate our strategy regarding ISIS even though the Iraqi military ran ..... again.

 

Clinton now claims that she really wants the State Department to turn over her e-mails. Of course that won't include the ones she already destroyed.

 

And, last but by no means least, the liberal MSM is having a field day asking Republican candidates if they would still attack Iraq knowing what we know now. Of course, none are asking either Obama or Clinton if they would still abandon Iraq knowing what we know now.

 

New day, same "stuff".


If we desire to secure peace, . . . it must be known, that we are at all times ready for war.
George Washington
Community Member
Posts: 1,831
Registered: ‎12-17-2006

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to patrickh3342

patrickh3342 wrote:

southernstargems wrote:

You still haven't opened up my Berkeley link to see how much your city or region has warmed?

 

Berkeley? :smileylol:  Why would I need to do that, considering that I have lived in the same city and state and observed the climate here for almost 60 years?  Some years we have mild winters and some years we have cold winters.  Some summers are hotter than others.  You see, climate is variable.  It always has been and always will be.

 

Why would you need to look at science? Hmmmmm errr uuuhhh...being informed is a pillar of Critical thinking. Your admission is no great surprise to me. Don't let me prevent you from doing that or actually looking at other books. Some people believe it's just Satan talking in those sciency books and stuff. 

 

From that logic I guess there is no such thing as World Hunger or famine since you've seen fresh produce in your local store for the last 60 years.:smileyhappy:

 

BTW, you never did post the parts of the Earth where the climate has continued to warm over the past dozen or so years.  Why is that?

 

Hmmm you don't believe what Scientists who actually study the Climate know?......Ohhhh that's a shocker!:smileyhappy:

Besides why would you believe some graph from one of them smarty pants fellers from Berkeley who think they are soooo smart. After all maybe they were one of those that descended from Apes so how smart could they be?

 

The fact that you aren't even aware that 2014 was the warmest on record is telling in of itself.   Let me guess you found a model of earth temperature from 2 kms up(from climate scientists) that says it hasn't warmed? Plan on moving up there someday to live?:smileyhappy:

 

If you don't like what China is doing then impose tariffs

 

I don't know how things work in Canada, but in the U.S. private citizens do not have the power to impose tariffs on other countries. :smileywink:

 

I am glad you have admitted to your short comings and it gives me great comfort that you won't be involved in any decision making and are powerless.


 


Yawn.  Apparently you are unaware that the major "greenhouse gas" is water vapor (look it up).  How do you propose to do away with that?  Do you not know that true science is based on obvservation?  Just keep making up your "facts" and I will continue to ignore them.

Community Member
Posts: 956
Registered: ‎01-25-2003

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to odiescoins

 


Re your global warming debate... there's nothing new under the sun (literally)...

"Extraordinary Popular Delusions, And The Madness of Crowds... "

" In reading the history of nations, we find that, like individuals, they have their whims and their peculiarities; their seasons of excitement and recklessness, when they care not what they do.

 

" We find that whole communities suddenly fix their minds upon one object, and go mad in its pursuit; that millions of people become simultaneously impressed with one delusion, and run after it, till their attention is caught by some new folly more captivating than the first...


" An instance of the faith in predictions occurred in London in the year 1524. The city swarmed at that time with fortune-tellers and astrologers, who were consulted daily by people of every class in society on the secrets of futurity. As early as the month of June 1523, several of them concurred in predicting that, on the 1st day of February 1524, the waters of the Thames would swell to such a height as to overflow the whole city of London, and wash away ten thousand houses. The prophecy met implicit belief.

" It was reiterated with the utmost confidence month after month, until so much alarm was excited that many families packed up their goods, and removed into Kent and Essex. As the time drew nigh, the number of these emigrants increased. In January, droves of workmen might be seen, followed by their wives and children, trudging on foot to the villages within fifteen or twenty miles, to await the catastrophe.

" People of a higher class were also to be seen in wagons and other vehicles bound on a similar errand. By the middle of January, at least twenty thousand persons had quitted the doomed city, leaving nothing but the bare walls of their homes to be swept away by the impending floods. Many of the richer sort took up their abode on the heights of Highgate, Hampstead, and Blackheath; and some erected tents as far away as Waltham Abbey on the north, and Croydon on the south of the Thames.

" Bolton, the prior of St. Bartholomew’s, was so alarmed, that he erected, at a very great expense, a sort of fortress at Harrow-on-the-Hill, which he stocked with provisions for two months. On the 24th of January, a week before the awful day which was to see the destruction of London, he removed thither, with the brethren and officers of the priory and all his household. A number of boats were conveyed in wagons to his fortress, furnished abundantly with expert rowers, in case the flood, reaching so high as Harrow, should force them to go farther for a resting-place. Many wealthy citizens prayed to share his retreat; but the prior, with a prudent forethought, admitted only his personal friends, and those who brought stores of eatables for the blockade.

" At last the morn, big with the fate of London, appeared in the east. The wondering crowds were astir at an early hour to watch the rising of the waters. The inundation, it was predicted, would be gradual, not sudden; so that they expected to have plenty of time to escape as soon as they saw the bosom of old Thames heave beyond the usual mark.

" But the majority were too much alarmed to trust to this, and thought themselves safer ten or twenty miles off. The Thames, unmindful of the foolish crowds upon its banks, flowed on quietly as of yore. The tide ebbed at its usual hour, flowed to its usual height, and then ebbed again, just as if twenty astrologers had not pledged their words to the contrary.

" Blank were their faces as evening approached, and as blank grew the faces of the citizens to think that they had made such fools of themselves.

" At last night set in, and the obstinate river would not lift its waters to sweep away even one house out of the ten thousand. Still, however, the people were afraid to go to sleep. Many hundreds remained up till dawn of the next day, lest the deluge should come upon them like a thief in the night.

" On the morrow, it was seriously discussed whether it would not be advisable to duck the false prophets in the river.

" Luckily for them, they thought of an expedient which allayed the popular fury. They asserted that, by an error (a very slight one) of a little figure, they had fixed the date of this awful inundation a whole century too early...

" The stars were right after all, and they, erring mortals, were wrong. The present generation of cockneys was safe, and London would be washed away, not in 1524 - but in 1624.

" At this announcement, Bolton the prior dismantled his fortress, and the weary emigrants came back...


"Extraordinary Popular Delusions, And The Madness of Crowds" - Charles MacKay (1852)

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24518/24518-h/dvi.html


 

Community Member
Posts: 3,946
Registered: ‎06-16-2006

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

[ Edited ]
in reply to patrickh3342

patrickh3342 wrote:

No wonder Canada is dead last. Hey Odie maybe I could use some advice on how to clean up my backyard....... any ideas on how to deprogram these Evangelists who control the Canadian Government?


No more than you have ideas about how the U.S. can deal with our inept, incompetent and outright dishonest president who says "the science is settled".

 

One consideration: You have an election coming up on October 19, 2015.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42nd_Canadian_federal_election

 

Perhaps you should spend the time you spend here supporting the Liberal Party who blew a substantial lead in the polls about a year ago and are now behind the Conservatives ..... again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_42nd_Canadian_federal_election

 

That would clearly be a way to channel your energy against all those "evil Evangelicals" and others who challenge your position, however I suspect you would have to start by admitting that "the science" is far from "settled" and recognize that those who disagree with the AGW/ACC party line you spout are not all being stupid, ignorant, and/or anti-science.


If we desire to secure peace, . . . it must be known, that we are at all times ready for war.
George Washington
Community Member
Posts: 3,946
Registered: ‎06-16-2006

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to patrickh3342

Oh my, patrickh! All those words and not a single one that rebuts the facts I presented.

 

What I do see is plenty of excuses, more deliberate distortions, a bunch of personal attacks, a liberal dose of unfounded allegations, and tons of extraneous material, most of which has no relevance to the issue I raised.

 

And all because I challenged you to clean up your own country's mess before telling others what to do.

 

That's my message clear and simple but you just keep ignoring it while piling on the "red herrings". The simple fact is the goal post hasn't moved at all but the ability to see it has been totally obfuscated by your barrage of deliberate distortions, gorilla dust and excuses.

 

As I said before, you need to focus on why Canada is ranked worse than the U.S. in that report; why your government "failed to take ambitious action on climate protection"; why your country "is about to miss its 2020 emissions reduction target by about 20%"; why the "simple Math" shows Canada is as large a polluter as the U.S.; and specifically what you intend to do to correct that before you continue to pontificate about how the U.S. should change.


If we desire to secure peace, . . . it must be known, that we are at all times ready for war.
George Washington
Community Member
Posts: 3,982
Registered: ‎03-10-2008

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

[ Edited ]
in reply to patrickh3342

At the start, patrickh said:

 

Well why don't we attack the messenger since we can't prove AGW wrong.

 

No, patrickh, we can't prove AGW wrong.  But that's not the job.  Prove it right!  That would do just fine.

 

For the rest, I'm not sure.

 

 



"climate is what we expect weather is what we get"
M. Twain


.
Community Member
Posts: 3,095
Registered: ‎05-04-2010

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to gacooke

gacooke wrote:

I do see that the Albertans (Albertanadians?) are slowing their mad rush to turn the tar sands into dollars.  No if only they would turn their attention to rational, long-term development of this resource, insead of this "spigot on, spigot off" approach.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2015/05/07/tar-sands-interrupted-a-canadian-political-explosi...

 


I can see why you've come up with that statement since you've never been there before. Was in Ft Mac Mid April and I am failing to see this spigot on spigot off approach.

 

When exactly did they turn the spigot off? You mean "drill baby drill".....profits,profits profits now is irrational? Are you suggesting Gov't should intervene in going concerns? They will stop when prices go so low or demand drops.

 

A new  project I was at plans on going from 100k barrels to 300k barrels by 2017. That is based on the current low prices.  The fear is stranded dirty oil in the ground not necessarily running out.

Community Member
Posts: 3,095
Registered: ‎05-04-2010

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to southernstargems

southernstargems wrote:

You still haven't opened up my Berkeley link to see how much your city or region has warmed?

 

Berkeley? :smileylol:  Why would I need to do that, considering that I have lived in the same city and state and observed the climate here for almost 60 years?  Some years we have mild winters and some years we have cold winters.  Some summers are hotter than others.  You see, climate is variable.  It always has been and always will be.

 

Why would you need to look at science? Hmmmmm errr uuuhhh...being informed is a pillar of Critical thinking. Your admission is no great surprise to me. Don't let me prevent you from doing that or actually looking at other books. Some people believe it's just Satan talking in those sciency books and stuff. 

 

From that logic I guess there is no such thing as World Hunger or famine since you've seen fresh produce in your local store for the last 60 years.:smileyhappy:

 

BTW, you never did post the parts of the Earth where the climate has continued to warm over the past dozen or so years.  Why is that?

 

Hmmm you don't believe what Scientists who actually study the Climate know?......Ohhhh that's a shocker!:smileyhappy:

Besides why would you believe some graph from one of them smarty pants fellers from Berkeley who think they are soooo smart. After all maybe they were one of those that descended from Apes so how smart could they be?

 

The fact that you aren't even aware that 2014 was the warmest on record is telling in of itself.   Let me guess you found a model of earth temperature from 2 kms up(from climate scientists) that says it hasn't warmed? Plan on moving up there someday to live?:smileyhappy:

 

If you don't like what China is doing then impose tariffs

 

I don't know how things work in Canada, but in the U.S. private citizens do not have the power to impose tariffs on other countries. :smileywink:

 

I am glad you have admitted to your short comings and it gives me great comfort that you won't be involved in any decision making and are powerless.


 

Community Member
Posts: 3,095
Registered: ‎05-04-2010

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to odiescoins

Just to illustrate that science has nothing to do with citizenry or their record on fossil fuel emissions:

 

Here is something from Canadian Climate Scientist Katherine Hayhoe who heads the Climate Change Centre of Texas Tech. Texas almost emits the same amount of pollutants as all of Canada BTW. You can pull out your calculator and spin it to GDP/per longhorn flatulence or per capita Oil men.

 

She is there to teach Muslims and Christians like yourself the basics of Physics behind AGW. Also why your belief system has made you come to irrational conclusions including having a hard time even deciding something based on empirical evidence. 

 

http://blogs.vancouversun.com/2015/05/11/evangelicals-finally-join-the-climate-change-battle/

 

"If any group has been prone to denying that humans are causing global warming, polls show it is conservative Christians, particularly those who predominate in the Republican-dominated U.S. Congress, not to mention in political spheres in Canada."

 

"Hayhoe, despite her friendly nature, is tough enough to take on such evangelicals about their theological and economic beliefs. That includes Prime Minister Stephen Harper, a member of the evangelical Alliance Church of Canada, and his federal caucus of which half are conservative Christians."

 

No wonder Canada is dead last. Hey Odie maybe I could use some advice on how to clean up my backyard....... any ideas on how to deprogram these Evangelists who control the Canadian Government? 

 

Many desperately hope people like the pope and Hayhoe will make a dent in the way North America’s large conservative Christian population has generally opposed steps to reduce carbon use and to switch to cleaner energy. A Pew poll found two of three white U.S. evangelicals did not believe humans are causing the warming of the Earth

 

"Hayhoe has her work cut out in her country of origin, however. Climate Action Network Europe ranked Canada among the worst of 58 countries in the industrialized world for its failure to combat climate change."

 

Good luck with that Katherine trying to convince the Far right Christian Conservatives who presently control our Canadian Gov't. 

 

Evangelicals constantly tell her that God has absolute power, including to usher in an apocalypse, which they believe eclipses anything that humanity could do to the planet.

 

So Hayhoe counters with scriptures stating that while God created the Earth, Christians have to play an active role as its stewards, as protectors of the Earth, not just its exploiters.

 

Well Katherine the first step is getting them to even accept science which has nothing to do with public policy. If Darwin failed I doubt you have much of a chance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Community Member
Posts: 3,095
Registered: ‎05-04-2010

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to odiescoins

Odiescoins wrote:

Once again, the simple fact remains that if you are going to tell others what they should do and how they should do it then you should set the example.

 

Obviously you aren't.

 

Well why don't we attack the messenger since we can't prove AGW wrong. While we are at it sprinkle in some ethnocentric reactions and throw in some xenophobia. All because your side can't deal with scientific facts while your "its all a Hoax' meme is dying even in the Politicial arena.

 

Once again more Gorilla Dust and rants about who pollutes more or a Strawman about telling others what to do or not to do. The noise of the goalposts moving is deafening. Since the science is not on your side and you can no longer defend it then you can distract with GDP per capita of illogical thought. 

 

Now from the anti-science and AGW deniers comes the meme that a persons birth certificate invalidates the science that man made emissions is causing the warming of the planet.

 

Is this your response as to why the science is wrong? Canada is the largest polluter? This is to be expected from the irrational thoughts of individuals prone to believing climate deniers and politicians bent on protecting their campaign contributors.

 

Whats next for you Odie? AGW is bad science because Canadians drive more SUV's per capita than anybody else. Maybe a report will come out stating that Stephen Harper will fly more miles by air than any other World Leader this year therefore AGW is false? This is more proof that the sooper secret Cabal of Climate scientists has manipulated the data? Better yet maybe you can find a report stating Canada has the most climate deniers in the World.

 

A persons country of origin does not invalidate the science behind AGW. A citizen from Saudi, China or Canada stating you have no credible science refuting AGW does not invalidate scientific facts. Regardless of what you think they should be saying or doing it does not refute the evidence. 

 

I put this line of irrational thought in the same heap as AL Gore bought a big house so AGW is false. Or all the World leaders will emit lots of C02 travelling to the Paris summit this year so the GHG theory is suspect.

 

Now that 2014 was the warmest year on record and is about to be broken in 2015 I can expect many red herrings to be put forward since the facts are continually proving the deniers wrong.

 

How individual countries decide to deal with their emissions is solely up to them. However science is borderless and the validity of that science has no relationship to citizenry no matter how much you want to try a steer it away from that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Community Member
Posts: 3,946
Registered: ‎06-16-2006

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to silverfox82

silverfox82 wrote:

Owen wrote "Once again, the simple fact remains that if you are going to tell others what they should do and how they should do it then you should set the example."

    Isn't this sentiment directly in opposition to the mantra on the right that why should we lead the way in reducing greenhouse gases while China and India do little or nothing?


Yup.

 

My posts have nothing to do with China or India since no one from those countries is posting here telling us what to do. However, for tne record note that the table on Page 6 of the report I cited lists India as 31st (up from 36th in 2014) and China right behind the U.S. as 45th (up from 46th in 2014).
https://germanwatch.org/en/download/10407.pdf

 

Meanwhile Canada has been dead last for the past two years, so they should be the last people telling anyone else how to solve a problem they are doing nothing about.

 

BTW: I'm going to remind you again that my positions are based on facts related to an issue and not any specific ideology or party allegiance.


If we desire to secure peace, . . . it must be known, that we are at all times ready for war.
George Washington
Community Member
Posts: 524
Registered: ‎12-14-2008

Re: OT: Political Discussion... Please...

in reply to odiescoins

Owen wrote "Once again, the simple fact remains that if you are going to tell others what they should do and how they should do it then you should set the example."

    Isn't this sentiment directly in opposition to the mantra on the right that why should we lead the way in reducing greenhouse gases while China and India do little or nothing?