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dencher01 · ‎09-06-2011

Over the years I have tried to sell a number of PGX rated comics with very little to no success. Similiar comics rated CGC were no issue for me to sell. I have contemplated taking the comics out of their PGX case and sell them outright as a raw ungraded comic. Please give me your two cents worth on what you think of my question. It may be kind of hard to believe taking a book out of it's case but when buyers seem to "turn up their nose at the PGX rating I feel it may be a good option.

redxjohn · ‎04-16-2014

That is kinda stupid my man.
I'm sure PGX or CGC just happened to miss the BIG CHUNK of story missing when they did their massive inspection of the book.

THAT makes perfect sense.

fun_comics9857 · ‎04-18-2014

If you need to grade then go with CGC, at least for the nostalgia purpose. But why would you bother grading Deadpool Kills the Marvel Universe #1-4?

comicdiablo · ‎04-27-2014

Okay, to introduce myself, I began collecting comics in 1993, worked for a comic shop for 2 years, have sold comics periodically on eBay since 2004, and have done extensive research on comic grading. When I sell, I grade very strictly and thoroughly and have never had a complaint about my grading. Now I'm going to give my honest view on the CGC vs. PGX grading debate.

I have seen comics from both CGC and PGX on which I disagreed on the grade. Usually, this is the difference between NM+ and NM or between VF/NM and VF+ (not far off). Since grading is somewhat subjective, such discrepancies are understandable. In my experience, however, the most horribly graded comic I have seen out of hundreds was from CGC. It was a CGC 9.6 NM+ New Teen Titans #2 (First Deathstroke). The comic had several stress lines on the spine. In my opinion, without even looking inside of the book, this comic should have been graded 9.2 NM- at best. I was so disturbed by the grade that I quickly sold the comic. The guy who bought it snagged it for a great deal (about what a 9.2 usually would have sold for), which eased my conscience on the matter.

I have never gotten comics graded with CGC, although I have purchased and sold many. One advantage that CGC has is that they grade magazine-sized comics. Because I have some of those, I will have to use CGC in the future, unless PGX one day offers that option. I have gotten hundreds of comics graded with PGX. I have never been very dissatisfied with the grades I received from PGX, and it's not because PGX tends to overgrade. It's because the grade they assign has never been far off from my estimated grade. In fact, CGC and PGX grade quite similarly. I cannot speak for Silver Age comics or older and can only speak for grades ranging from 7.0 on up because I am a collector of high-grade comics from the Bronze Age and later. Personally, I prefer PGX holders to CGC holders. They have less visual appeal but are more durable. In terms of price, CGC is more expensive than PGX. For me, the advantages of PGX outweigh the disadvantages.

While it is true that a CGC-graded comic will fetch a higher price in today's market, this is more because CGC has been around longer, has better marketing and convention presence, and is in league with some of the largest comic shops around the nation. So, CGC set the standard. However, that does not mean they are superior, and I have never been one for fads. Virtual monopolies do not last forever, and contrary to what some people would have you believe, competition is a good thing for any free market, including comic grading. This is part of the reason why I take some of the criticisms that have been leveled against PGX across the years with skepticism (including the alleged TMNT grading incident from 2005). It does not match my personal experience, and there are obvious financial reasons that many individuals and businesses invested in CGC might have for trying to make the competition look bad.

bpmcomics · ‎04-27-2014

If you are okay with sending comics to a garage in Oregon with questionable status on insurance and security just so you can save a few dollars I guess that is your prerogative. I do not see any where that anyone has stated that CGC should be the only company in the business but if a rival is going to exist it should be a proper business with a facility and with knowledgeable graders who have the ability to detect restoration. That is not going to be PGX no matter how cheap they make their grading fees.

comicdiablo · ‎04-27-2014

@bpmcomics wrote:
If you are okay with sending comics to a garage in Oregon with questionable status on insurance and security just so you can save a few dollars I guess that is your prerogative. I do not see any where that anyone has stated that CGC should be the only company in the business but if a rival is going to exist it should be a proper business with a facility and with knowledgeable graders who have the ability to detect restoration. That is not going to be PGX no matter how cheap they make their grading fees.

It seems that you are more intent on promoting CGC at every turn than you are on acknowledging what others have to say, as if your mind is already made up and nothing anyone says is going to change your demonized views of PGX and glowingly positive views of CGC.

So let me reiterate: I stated that PGX is not only cheaper, but they also grade about the same as CGC and have more durable holders. So it's not just to "save a few dollars" that I send my comics to PGX; it's because they provide much the same grading service, have more durable holders, charge less money, and have a faster turnaround time.

By the way, have you seen the "garage" in Oregon where PGX is located? Did you happen to take photos or have photos of the place from anyone else? I have also heard that PGX is run out of the basement of the owner's mother. Is it the first, the latter, or both? Maybe PGX also performs Satanic rituals and places a voodoo curse on each of their graded comics too...

As for restoration, I have heard of cases where CGC and PGX have missed restoration. I also have heard of cases of where CGC and PGX caught restoration. Who is to say who misses restoration more often? Many people don't even know that their comics have been restored until they send them in to get graded, and I'm sure there are also many cases where neither the owner nor the grading company noticed restoration.

comicdiablo · ‎04-27-2014

For anyone interested in a discussion of restoration errors related to CGC, you can read the following multi-page CGC forum thread:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7446805&fpart=1

If you have no desire to read through 73 pages of responses, then you can go to the last page of the thread (or page 72), which contains a concise summary of what a number of different forum members stated on the issue.

bpmcomics · ‎04-27-2014

@comicdiablo wrote:

It seems that you are more intent on promoting CGC at every turn than you are on acknowledging what others have to say, as if your mind is already made up and nothing anyone says is going to change your demonized views of PGX and glowingly positive views of CGC.

If the choice is CGC or PGX, then yes my mind is made up. It's not even a question. I'd rather pay twice as much to send my comics to a legitimate company then to some fly-by-night operation.

@comicdiablo wrote:

So let me reiterate: I stated that PGX is not only cheaper, but they also grade about the same as CGC and have more durable holders. So it's not just to "save a few dollars" that I send my comics to PGX; it's because they provide much the same grading service, have more durable holders, charge less money, and have a faster turnaround time.

You may not be interested in it but CGC's restoration check is light years better then Dan Patterson's, I mean PGX's. Their holders are the same, PGX decided to use an inner well that CGC deemed had the potential to cause the cover to pull away from the interior. One inner well is made of barex and the other uPVC. The only reason you use them is the cost, that's the only reason anyone uses them.

@comicdiablo wrote:

By the way, have you seen the "garage" in Oregon where PGX is located? Did you happen to take photos or have photos of the place from anyone else? I have also heard that PGX is run out of the basement of the owner's mother. Is it the first, the latter, or both? Maybe PGX also performs Satanic rituals and places a voodoo curse on each of their graded comics too...

Garage, basement, kitchen, whatever you want to use. Their mailing address, before they switched to a PO, is a residential house on a cul-de-sac. If you had actually read any of these threads this would have already been known to you. Their switch to a PO Box just coincidentally coincided with people finding out their operations were in a residential house.

@comicdiablo wrote:

As for restoration, I have heard of cases where CGC and PGX have missed restoration. I also have heard of cases of where CGC and PGX caught restoration. Who is to say who misses restoration more often? Many people don't even know that their comics have been restored until they send them in to get graded, and I'm sure there are also many cases where neither the owner nor the grading company noticed restoration.

I'll take a restoration check by a group that has been trained by one of the best restoration experts in the business, Chris Friesen, over Dan Patterson's self-taught ability to try to spot restoration. I'd also rather have three people at CGC looking at the book as opposed to one at PGX.

I would never submit books to a company that missed amateur color touch (can be caught with a black light) like PGX has. Feel free to revisit (or actually look at for the first time) the link provided earlier in this thread by poster paratrooper_sean.

comicdiablo · ‎04-27-2014

@comicdiablo wrote:
For anyone interested in a discussion of restoration errors related to CGC, you can read the following multi-page CGC forum thread:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7446805&fpart=1

If you have no desire to read through 73 pages of responses, then you can go to the last page of the thread (or page 72), which contains a concise summary of what a number of different forum members stated on the issue.

Okay, here's another thread on the CGC forum (a follow-up to the one above) regarding CGC's inconsistency in its restoration checks:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7585159&fpart=1

To summarize just one series of incidents (among many), a forum member had a Journey Into Mystery #83 (CGC blue label) graded 6.0. The owner thought that it should have graded higher and resubmitted it to CGC after cracking open the case. CGC then graded the same comic 7.0 with a purple (restored) label because of supposed trimming. The owner then sold the comic to someone else, and that person resubmitted the comic for grading. CGC then graded the same comic 6.0 with a blue label. Not only is the inconsistency regarding restoration disturbing, but the inconsistency in grading is quite disturbing as well.

forist603 · ‎04-27-2014

PGX graders are not nuimismatically certified like CGC graders are. These people are more concerned with lighter rules in grading. I have a PGX Fantastic Four #250 that was graded at VG/FN 5.0 because the last page was missing and this did not affect the story. CGC would have graded this much lower. PGX is more concerned with the actual general appearance of the book; CGC concentrates on nitty gritty details that may or may not be noticeable or worthy of consideration (depending on whom you ask). In the end, its all about the money. If one pays enough money, one will receive whatever grades they want. There are many books that look exactly the same when graded by CGC, yet they are given grades ranging from 9.2 through 9.8. If you want to spend exorbitant membership fees and charges for grading books, then CGC is for you. This is why CGC books cost so much more than PGX graded books: the more money invested in second party outside grading, then the more the grading is worth to buyers. Use PGX to save money, not make it. Spend money on grading with CGC, and the money you invest should come back to you.

I use PGX. I don't believe in tossing money to the wind.

forist603 · ‎04-27-2014

I sell some PGX graded books, and these are legitimately graded books. I do not attempt to pass these off as numisimatically certified. When you say, "pass them off as legit," do you mean a seller who attempts to make these equal with CGC? I believe these are clearly not equal grading standards, yet I think it is unfair to label PGX as illegitimate. These are books for collectors who are trying to save money, not necessarily make it. To sell the same CGC book that PGX would grade for just $20, one must pay high annual membership fees and high grading costs per book. In the end, this negatively affects waiting time and increases overall market price.

I collect both types. But when sending books off to be graded so as to become part of my private collection, I always use PGX. I believe to do otherwise merely tosses money to the wind. I think it would be better to buy gold and silver than CGC books for investment purposes.

So, based on cost alone, PGX is the best legitimate grading standard for any privately owned collection. If one wants to make money, then one has to spend money. Thats where CGC comes in.

fun_comics9857 · ‎04-28-2014

CGC graders are not certified; that was one of my concerns. CGC is recognized by the CGC Colllection Society and now respected by many collectors as a good third-party grading company. CGC also grades coins, magazines, books, money, etc; they are recognized and respected throughout the industries. They are not a fly-by nighter, and have established themselves within the industry. So, I would go to CGC and get my valued book slabbed. People will pay for CGC grades; they are known and respected within the industry. So, you're best to spend a little more and just go with CGC. With PGX you are tossing your money to the wind. CGC isn't 100% accurate, bt at least you will get an established company to grade your books.

fun_comics9857 · ‎04-28-2014

In your last post you did claim CGC used numismaticaly certified. Now you've just contradicted yourself. PGX has no grading standards in place. CGC uses their own grading standards. I wouldn't use either of them, but I had to then I would go with CGC. You don't need to be a member of CGC - I went through all that in my earlier posts.

fun_comics9857 · ‎04-28-2014

Numismatically

the_q_collection_sucks · ‎04-28-2014

@comicdiablo wrote:
Okay, to introduce myself, I began collecting comics in 1993, worked for a comic shop for 2 years, have sold comics periodically on eBay since 2004, and have done extensive research on comic grading. When I sell, I grade very strictly and thoroughly and have never had a complaint about my grading. Now I'm going to give my honest view on the CGC vs. PGX grading debate.

I read the stuff below, but you forgot one thing - the honesty. Where is it?

I have seen comics from both CGC and PGX on which I disagreed on the grade. Usually, this is the difference between NM+ and NM or between VF/NM and VF+ (not far off). Since grading is somewhat subjective, such discrepancies are understandable. In my experience, however, the most horribly graded comic I have seen out of hundreds was from CGC. It was a CGC 9.6 NM+ New Teen Titans #2 (First Deathstroke). The comic had several stress lines on the spine. In my opinion, without even looking inside of the book, this comic should have been graded 9.2 NM- at best. I was so disturbed by the grade that I quickly sold the comic. The guy who bought it snagged it for a great deal (about what a 9.2 usually would have sold for), which eased my conscience on the matter.

Was the book a victim of SCS?

@comicdiablo wrote:
For me, the advantages of PGX outweigh the disadvantages.
You are a fool, and have been parted from your money.

@comicdiablo wrote:

While it is true that a CGC-graded comic will fetch a higher price in today's market, this is more because CGC has been around longer, has better marketing and convention presence, and is in league with some of the largest comic shops around the nation. So, CGC set the standard. However, that does not mean they are superior, and I have never been one for fads.
CGC a fad? 15 years doesn't count? Graders with actual experience is a turn-off for you? CGC not superior to PGX? LOL, you are a gem. You've got your mind made up and it ain't gonna change - you are a cementhead. Tell me something, who are the graders at PGX? What are their names? Who is the resto detection expert at PGX? Come back when you have an answer to this, 'cause I can do that for CGC.

@comicdiablo wrote:
. This is part of the reason why I take some of the criticisms that have been leveled against PGX across the years with skepticism (including the alleged TMNT grading incident from 2005). It does not match my personal experience, and there are obvious financial reasons that many individuals and businesses invested in CGC might have for trying to make the competition look bad.
You take the criticism leveled against PGX with skepticism because you already wasted your money with PGX! Of course you're not going to back down now, your pride and wallet would be hurt. You know you're a fool, but can't admit it. We know, we understand, people like you come around here all the time. I hope someday you'll come to your senses. Don't be a hypocrite, saying others have financial reasons to make others look bad, you're a prime example of that, and you're trying to do that righ here and now.

the_q_collection_sucks · ‎04-28-2014

@comicdiablo wrote:
@bpmcomics wrote:
If you are okay with sending comics to a garage in Oregon with questionable status on insurance and security just so you can save a few dollars I guess that is your prerogative. I do not see any where that anyone has stated that CGC should be the only company in the business but if a rival is going to exist it should be a proper business with a facility and with knowledgeable graders who have the ability to detect restoration. That is not going to be PGX no matter how cheap they make their grading fees.
It seems that you are more intent on promoting CGC at every turn than you are on acknowledging what others have to say, as if your mind is already made up and nothing anyone says is going to change your demonized views of PGX and glowingly positive views of CGC.

That's because he's a smart man who's been paying attention for the past 15 years.
comicdiablo wrote:.

So let me reiterate: I stated that PGX is not only cheaper, but they also grade about the same as CGC and have more durable holders. So it's not just to "save a few dollars" that I send my comics to PGX; it's because they provide much the same grading service, have more durable holders, charge less money, and have a faster turnaround time.

Penny wise, pound foolish. If all this is true, why, after all these years, why hasn't PGX been able to make any inroads in eroding CGC's monopoly? You're objective and honest, right? Tell me the answer to this question. Bonus points for telling me what names PGX used before this current name.

@comicdiablo wrote:
By the way, have you seen the "garage" in Oregon where PGX is located? Did you happen to take photos or have photos of the place from anyone else? I have also heard that PGX is run out of the basement of the owner's mother. Is it the first, the latter, or both? Maybe PGX also performs Satanic rituals and places a voodoo curse on each of their graded comics too...
I have, and it's both. Before they hid their real address, you could go on Google Earth and see the residental house at the end of a cul-de-sac. This is true, it is fact, it cannot be disputed.

@comicdiablo wrote:
As for restoration, I have heard of cases where CGC and PGX have missed restoration. I also have heard of cases of where CGC and PGX caught restoration. Who is to say who misses restoration more often? Many people don't even know that their comics have been restored until they send them in to get graded, and I'm sure there are also many cases where neither the owner nor the grading company noticed restoration.
Who is the restoration expert for PGX? What is his name? What are his qualifications? I can tell you all of this about the CGC resto expert, enlighten me on the PGX side of this.