Miao Silver Counterfeit US Dollars

[ivan17711]

Has anyone noticed the rash of listings in recent weeks, mostly from China, of "Miao Silver" replicas?  They look just like circulated pre-1921 Morgan dollars, complete with wear and toning, along with the words "United States of America" and "One Dollar".  Most of these listings don't disclose that "Miao Silver" is actually base metal, with little or no silver content.  There is nothing on the coin to indicate that it is a replica or copy.  Since when is it legal to sell counterfeit US Dollars on eBay?  Is there any way to bring this to someone's attention?  I have reported several of these listings by the same seller, but they keep listing more of them!  People are paying between $10 and $15 each for these fakes.

[nufces09]

hmmm now you bring up a very interesting idea - Chinese sellers must provide return shipping??? hmmm how will that cost them??

[davidgallston]

Ivan,

You will continue to see more and more of these and other counterfeits in the listings. There were some changes in the recent past that basically ended the ability of those who care to get listings removed. The scammers know now what the story is and they are settling in to do major listings. Reporting from the listing page now does even less than it did before. Buyers should use extreme caution now when buying any coin. Graded and slabbed coins should also be checked carefully. Buy the coin, not the slab.

[lucy*davies]

Buy the coin, not the slab.

I'd say, buy the seller first, then the coin.

[davidgallston]

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@lucy*davies wrote:

Buy the coin, not the slab.

I'd say, buy the seller first, then the coin.

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I think Lincoln ended that

🙂

[n.s.sherlock]

"RARE" 1842o SEATED LIBERTY ANTIQUE MIAO SILVER FANTASY COMMEMORATIVE DOLLAR COIN

Rubbish

There are currently 44 listings for MAIO SILVER in the coins and paper money category.

The sellers are getting blatant in their hawking of counterfeit / replica coins.

[ted_200]

There are currently 44 listings for MAIO SILVER in the coins and paper money category.

The sellers are getting blatant in their hawking of counterfeit / replica coins.

Only 44?  That's quite an improvement over several months ago!

Oh... I see... that's because 90% of them are listed in other categories:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40%7CR40&_sacat=0&_nkw=miao+silver+coin&_sac=1#seeAllAnchorLin...

Same search as "completed" renders 2,800 results:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40%7CR40&_sacat=0&_sac=1&_nkw=miao+silver+coin&LH_Complete=1&r...

[kentuckygamer23]

Given how the listing says "FANTASY" and "MIAO SILVER" in bold lettering, what is the crime here? I'm not understanding. As long as people are not passing these off as REAL coins (which they aren't...) then this is completely victimless. And the listings end at ridiculously low prices, meaning no one actually thinks they are real.

[ted_200]

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@kentuckygamer23 wrote:

Given how the listing says "FANTASY" and "MIAO SILVER" in bold lettering, what is the crime here? I'm not understanding. As long as people are not passing these off as REAL coins (which they aren't...) then this is completely victimless. And the listings end at ridiculously low prices, meaning no one actually thinks they are real.

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Well... the "crimes" are several...

1.  Selling any replica coin, identified as such or not, is against eBay policy (the eBay Coins Selling Policy).

2.  Some people undoubtedly think some of these listings are real coins... not that I want to insult people, but there are some pretty stupid people out there, and eBay is a common place for someone just starting out, and with close to zero numismatic knowledge to buy something..

3.  Most people probably don't think they are real, and know full well what they are buying.  The problem is, these people will then offer this trash for sale to someone else (maybe on eBay) WITHOUT any of the fancy "Miao", "Fantasy", "Handwork", terms. 

4.  And there is a REAL "crime".  Selling replicas of coins without being marked COPY in accordance with The Hobby Protection  Act is a violation of federal law. 

5.  As a practican matter, this is bad for eBay and bad for eBay users.  Buyers have to wade through all this trash when searching for real coins to buy, and it damages the eBay marketplace reputation for both buyers and sellers when there's a pile of fake coins that violate the law being offered for sale.

[davidgallston]

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@kentuckygamer23 wrote:

Given how the listing says "FANTASY" and "MIAO SILVER" in bold lettering, what is the crime here? I'm not understanding. As long as people are not passing these off as REAL coins (which they aren't...) then this is completely victimless. And the listings end at ridiculously low prices, meaning no one actually thinks they are real.

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Where to start? In a perfect world Fantasy pieces alone are not dangerous unless they are not marked on the coin "copy" or some such thing, especially when the fantasy is made of a real existing coin. The Chinese started making "fantasy" coins by the millions, almost every known US and world coin and started distributing them around the world. There is no "copy" on them and they are used to trick people into thinking that they are real. The Chinese also made slabs to resemble NGC and PCGS ones. They tried to make them as perfect as possible. They were made for one and only one reason, to deceive.

It starts with the innocent fantasy coins being allowed and once the door is opened the flood begins. eBay rightly closed down the replica coin selling on eBay some years ago. Whether or not they still enforce the ban on them is anyone's guess. I sold replica coins back prior to that. All of them were marked "copy" to stay in good graces with the hobby act. I saw them leading to bad things happening and gladly stopped selling mint in order to try to keep eBay free of them. 

eBay did not stay clean of fake coins nor is it clean today. Within the last few months with actions having been taken the problem with fakes is perhaps larger than ever before.

With fantasy coins and their closeness to fake coins people like to peddle as real there are no levels of good or bad. They are all bad and lead to real problems. Ask any of the big coin dealers about the Chinese forgeries and especially the well done ones and he will tell you that they are threatening our hobby.

eBay being the largest venue for coins for some time was always out in the fore front in fighting forgery. It was doing a good job, That is gone now. There is no safety and there is no guarantee. I am sadenned by this.

Ask any of the long time members on this board what shape things are in now and where they are likely to go and they will tell you the same. I can tell you that the folks on CoinForgeryeBay (CFe) have a lot to say about all of this. They were leading the fight against fakes with some other good people, both members and eBay staff before it all ended.

So when you ask me what harm fantasy piece cause on eBay I get a little sensitive. They are not victimless and never have been.

[jeffhill100]

 Let me say I liked all 5 answers.  Each assertion leads to the logical conclusion that its just plain bad for everyone's business interests. Not to pick and choose but I'm adding to answer 2 and 3.

 I worked five years at major US base in Afghanistan. Bagram, ISAF people know it well too.  Every week or two the base opened up to local merchants to sell stuff for the day.  Like a US flea market, "trash and treasures", "car boot sales", "marché aux puces" locally we had a name for it but its derogatory to some people.  A place to buy some real and some really good fakes and handmades.  Just about the price on everything from rubies and precious stones to you name it was bartered at length.  Part of the entertainment and fun.

 My experience, coins, either the circulation silver US, UK, China, India as well as the "trade coins"  were never negotiated. I knew first hand from people returning to the US with US silver that every coin was a very good fake.  The sellers actually thought the coins were real and not trying to deceive.  Coinage the world over means trust for trade.  Put an end to fakes on eBay.

[davidgallston]

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@jeffhill100 wrote:

 Let me say I liked all 5 answers.  Each assertion leads to the logical conclusion that its just plain bad for everyone's business interests. Not to pick and choose but I'm adding to answer 2 and 3.

 I worked five years at major US base in Afghanistan. Bagram, ISAF people know it well too.  Every week or two the base opened up to local merchants to sell stuff for the day.  Like a US flea market, "trash and treasures", "car boot sales", "marché aux puces" locally we had a name for it but its derogatory to some people.  A place to buy some real and some really good fakes and handmades.  Just about the price on everything from rubies and precious stones to you name it was bartered at length.  Part of the entertainment and fun.

 My experience, coins, either the circulation silver US, UK, China, India as well as the "trade coins"  were never negotiated. I knew first hand from people returning to the US with US silver that every coin was a very good fake.  The sellers actually thought the coins were real and not trying to deceive.  Coinage the world over means trust for trade.  Put an end to fakes on eBay.

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The Middle East "small market places" are certainly a fun way to spend some time. Bartering is a favorite past time of mostly every Middle Eastern person. I have a lot of contact with Gulf States Arabs here in the US and I get great enjoyment watching them try to bargain almost anything they want to buy. They get the hang of a fix priced market place here.

The one thing that I would differ with you on is the merchants knowing that their coins are koins. I would say 99% if not 100% of them do know. The Middle East is a big hot spot for counterfeit coins and currency. I am sure if you saw some coins at the markets and tried to bargain on them, especially the ones that were priced high, they would bargain. 

There are not very many innocents at all selling counterfeit coins, especially large numbers of them. The innocent look they have on their face is almost a true one.

[davidgallston]

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@lucy*davies wrote:

Buy the coin, not the slab.

I'd say, buy the seller first, then the coin.

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Lucy,

Now that I thought about that a little bit, I get it. I am thick sometimes. First be sure of the seller then look at the coin. Brilliant!

David

[n.am.potosi]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chinese-ancient-Miao-Silver-Coin-Diameter-39mm-14pcs-/112225218848?hash=item...

This current listing, 14 pieces of absolutely fake material that wouldn't stand up under even the most primitive weight test, comparing a fake, non-silver coin to a genuine item, is just one example of why EBay remains a prime market place and entry point for loads of fake, non-silver "coins" into the U.S. Sorry to say this, but all fakes are bad news and it's not only bad news for the first buyer, but for all future buyers as this **bleep** gets passed around.

I personally sell (or buy) silver coins that I can both weight and ring test: lead (and most aluminum-bronze alloys) don't ring at all, or, in the case of some bronze alloy items, ring at a higher tone than a genuine silver item, and only a pure lead immitation (that doesn't ring) might pass a weight test. Silver is considerably heavier than copper or any bronze or aluminum-bronze alloy, but I have seen (and actually acquired) one fake 1964 Kenedy half (that perports to be a Philadelphia mint item, with no mint mark) made of aluminum bronze with a silver wash that is visually an extremely lethal counterfeit. This Kenedy half fake must have been struck with the original mint dies, and even the reeding on the edge is convincingly milled and extremely deceptive.  It would easily pass through a mechanical coin counter, but is only about two-thirds the weight of the real thing. It pains me to think how many silver coin buyers are now sitting on quantities of these and other higholy deceptive fakes, even in the USA, that they bought in quantity purchases.

EBay needs to do a better job of screening and eliminating "Miao" and any other fake that is not clearly labeled "fake" on the item itself.   

[*smedley*]

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@n.am.potosi wrote:

EBay needs to do a better job of screening and eliminating "Miao" and any other fake that is not clearly labeled "fake" on the item itself.   

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for that to happen, they'd have to be screening and eliminating now...

they don't...