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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 6,908
Registered: ‎12-26-2002
Accepted Solution

GSP and returns.

A snippet from the special chat tthread.

 

GSP does not currently support returns from the buyer to the seller.  The seller and the buyer can arrange a return together.  In such a case, the import/PB fees would not be refunded to the buyer as the amount was utilized to ship the order forward and, in case import charges were required, those funds have been used to clear the order through customs to deliver to the buyer.

 

In other words, any dissatisfied buyer is not only out the return postage, they are also out the considerable shipping and import tax money as well.

 

It should be quite clearly marked on any GSP listings that any 'buyer protection' is limited to a fraction of the amount paid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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Community Member
Posts: 357
Registered: ‎02-19-2013

Re: GSP and returns.

[ Edited ]
in reply to afantiques

Ain't that sweet :smileywink:

 

In the case of a return, Pitney Bowes should at least provide the buyer with the proper documentation so that taxes or duties on an item could be recovered from Customs.

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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 6,908
Registered: ‎12-26-2002

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to chimera148

In the case of a return, Pitney Bowes should at least provide the buyer with the proper documentation so that taxes or duties on an item could be recovered from Customs.

 

Obviously not practical with items cleared inwards in bulk, but if it were possible would you want to be the one to explain to the buyer that they may be able to claim some of the import charges (remember, some is fees and brokerage) if they go through an elaborate process of proving re-shipment and dealing with generally unresponsive government departments, when all they wanted in the first place was to buy and receive a widget from America?

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af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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Community Member
Posts: 357
Registered: ‎02-19-2013

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to afantiques

Yes, but I wonder about the legalities.

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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 6,908
Registered: ‎12-26-2002

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to chimera148

Bleep the legalities, I just want happy buyers. :-)

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af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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eBay Employee
Posts: 442
Registered: ‎08-20-2013

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to afantiques

Hi afantiques. 

 

I took a look back into yesterday's Live Chat thread, and found another answer that also talked about returns under the GSP. I will paste that below. 

 

Also keep in mind that eBay Buyer Protection still applies in GSP transactions. As outlined in the Buyer Terms & Conditions 

http://pages.ebay.com/shipping/globalshipping/buyer-tnc.html

 

The thread below makes a couple distinctions that I thought might be useful. Returns from buyer to seller vs. refund, the different types of SNAD scenarios, etc.

 

It is somewhat complicated. I am certainly still trying to keep it all straight myself. Here is a cut&paste from an answer Dallas (from eBay) privided yesterday:

 

+++++

Hi fruitacres,

 

Good questions - and tough ones.

 

Dallas, if there is no program in place for a buyer with a SNAD to return an item purchased to the seller of record (with mandatory delivery confirmation like domestic returns I would presume) does that mean

 

  1. Foreign buyers do NOT have to return SNAD items for refund?  (seems completely unfair to sellers), or

If the SNAD is Pitney Bowes fault (for example, damaged in shipping during the international leg of transit), then no retun to the seller is necessary, the buyer does need to file a claim, but they will be made whole by eBay (for the total order cost, including the amount that was paid to the seller and the total amount the buyer paid to Pitney Bowes - international shipping, handling, customs, duties, taxes - total amount).  Pitney Bowes is responsible in that case, so the the seller is not held at fault for the SNAD and the seller keeps the money they received - the seller's portion is paid back through the dispute process by Pitney Bowes.

 

If the SNAD is not due to a Pitney Bowes error (for example, wrong color of item from what the buyer purchased), the normal eBay process applies for SNAD.  The buyer does need to return the item to the seller.

 

2. Foreign buyers DO have to return items at their own cost and method like normal prior to receiving a refund

 

Yes, specifically for a SNAD where PB is not the party at fault, the standard process would apply.  The buyers do have to return items, which would be at their cost if it is the buyer's fault - for example, buyer remorse.  It is always best if the seller specifies in a return policy who pays return shipping. 

 

And then, where do buyers return their item?  Pitney-Bowes or seller?

 

Since returns are not facilitated at this time by GSP from the buyer to the seller, the buyer would need to arrange the return directly with to the seller.

 

Because that (SNAD) is a big hangup from particpation in GSP whereas sellers might rather deal wityh a buyer using a re-shipper and thus buyer ggives up all BPP by forwarding?

 

So the buyer would not forfeit their protection in this case returning directly to the seller.  I am not certain if this answers your last question - if not, can you please visit the Seller Central board and open a thread and we will be sure to get back to you. 

+++++

 

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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 6,908
Registered: ‎12-26-2002

Re: GSP and returns.

[ Edited ]
in reply to bennett4612

That is fairly clear, if muddled, but it does not address in any way the fact, as stated in the quote I pasted ( I did read the entire chat and all the posts) that there is no refund to the buyer in a SNAD claim (not the fault of the shipper) of the international shipping and taxes paid, which could well be as much or more than the basic cost of the item, the amount that I understand would be refunded.

 

The buyer who buys a $200 camera,say, and pays $50 shipping and $50 Import charges (I am using UK import VAT levels here to estimate this) will have paid $300. If they then discover that the item is faulty, they open a SNAD claim and under normal terms as outlined above, return the item to the seller at a cost to them of, say, $30, and  they will be refunded $200 by the seller..

 

The cost of this experience to the buyer, through no fault of their own, (unless choosing a seller with a faulty item was a buyer fault) amounts to $130, and they have no camera.

 

I would be delighted to have it as a statement of policy that the ebay rep 'mis-spoke', as they say. and that this would not be the case, but as it stands I fear it would be. and my hypothetically 'protected' buyer will lose $130 from the $330 they spent: a figure they might not consider amounts to 'shopping  safely on ebay'.

 

These situations should be rare, but just a few customers going totally postal about the money thay have lost, with ebay's connivance, it might be said, will not be good adverts for ebay.

In terms of effective advertising spend, I'd say one customer's negative word of mouth would need several hundred or even thousand dollars media advertising to balance.

 

The risk of this sort of occasional claim can be calculated, and indeed if you read the terms and conditions it seems that the import charge make up already includes a contingency amount to cover errors and ommissions.

 

Adding maybe another dollar to cover a complete refund to all buyers whatever the problem (within the buyer protection guidelines) would be a far better idea than stiffing the buyer with a 30% or more dead loss.

 

Some flaws in this program that should never have made it to the live testing have now been ironed out, but others remain and there seems to be a lack of will or ability to tackle problems a competent manager would never have allowed to arise in the first place.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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eBay Employee
Posts: 442
Registered: ‎08-20-2013

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to afantiques

In the interest of full disclosure, afantiques, you know this stuff a lot better than I do. 

 

It seemed very ood to me that a buyer would be out any $ in a case like the one you describe above (or below, as I type this). So I went back and took a look at the Buyer Terms & Conditions page, and found #4a:

"eBay Buyer Protection. Your purchases of GSP Items on eBay.com are covered by eBay.com’s eBay Buyer Protection policy if your purchases otherwise meet the policy’s eligibility requirements and conditions and do not fall within an exclusion or coverage limitation. eBay.com’s eBay Buyer Protection policy may be different from the eBay Buyer Protection policy (if any) on your own eBay site of registration. If you are eligible for eBay Buyer Protection and eBay finds in your favor in a case stemming from your purchase of a GSP Item under the Program, the applicable coverage amount will include the Program Fees that you paid for the GSP Item."

 

So the way I read this is that if the item is SNAD, and not the fault of the shipper, the buyer has to ship it back to the seller. If the seller is found to be at fault, the buyer will be refunded an "amount will include the Program Fees that you paid for the GSP Item."

 

Not trying to argue, or split hairs. And again, you know these policies better than I do. But to me it sounds like the buyer is protected and reimbursed (eventually ....) in SNAD cases. It's simply a matter of whether the reimbursement comes from eBay/Pitney or the seller. 

 

I hope I'm explaining that ok. Have a good night.

 

--Ben

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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 6,908
Registered: ‎12-26-2002

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to bennett4612

But to me it sounds like the buyer is protected and reimbursed (eventually ....) in SNAD cases. It's simply a matter of whether the reimbursement comes from eBay/Pitney or the seller. 

 

A fair response, the policy does indeed read that way. But then, in my hypothetical case, is the seller going to be debited for an extra $100 to cover the amount that it was clearly stated is not refundable from ebay/PB?

 

. Is the seller warned that by using the GSP they are making themselves liable for ALL GSP fees including the ones kept by ebay/PB that they never see in their accounts. I feel that if this is the case, it should appear quite prominently in the terms and conditions. Sellers may not fancy laying themselves open to liabilities unknown to them (sellers do not see GSP costs or the total the buyer is charged) with every listing.

 

We seem to have a clear contradiction here. I am not in a position to resolve it, but I would assume you have some sort of ebay chain of command that you can climb up till you reach someone with a definitive answer. Although they may shoot the messenger. :-(

 

It is quite possible that it is a situation no one has given any thought to. In view of the liabilities for buyer or seller that I have outlined it is about time they did.

 

 

 

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af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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eBay Employee
Posts: 442
Registered: ‎08-20-2013

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to afantiques

This is great -- all good points. This type of back and forth is exactly what these boards are for, so thank you again for your input. 

 

There is indeed an eBay "chain of command", and I will definitely forward this exchange on up. My guess is that seller liability has been considered. Although to be honest I am not seeing it spelled out clearly in the situation you reference below (above?). 

 

The one thing I might add is that the seller is able to see all of the charges, including everything the buyer pays, on the View Order Details page. This has also come up and is being looked at as well. 

 

Again though, thanks for taking the time to examine this issue in such a thorough, intelligent way. Buyer AND seller liability is a hugely important issue and the eBay Community as a whole will surely benefit from your efforts. 

 

---Ben

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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 6,908
Registered: ‎12-26-2002

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to afantiques

Further study of the full contract does indicate that claims through Paypal/Ebay claims process do not involve loss of program fees, only returns arranged between buyer and seller independently do involve such a loss.

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af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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eBay Employee
Posts: 442
Registered: ‎08-20-2013

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to afantiques

Well, here's the part where the eBay GSP Guy eats some crow ....

 

I will be posting this information in a bunch of Message Board threads today, as I have been providing information that is partially incorrect ....

 

This is in regards to GSP transactions where the Seller is at fault (or cases of "buyer's remorse), and the GSP fees (international shipping, import fees, etc.) need to be refunded to the Buyer.

 

Truth be told it never seemed right that the SELLER would be held responsible for this portion of the refund. So when members of the Community such as yourself started to ask “are you sure about that?” I decided to dig a little further.

 

Well lo and behold … as it turns out, it is the responsibility of eBay / Pitney Bowes. Which of course means eBay was in some cases providing partially incorrect information when asked about GSP refunds.

 

****So just to be clear, with GSP transactions: in cases where the SELLER is at fault (SNAD, etc.) AND cases of “buyer’s remorse” – the SELLER is responsible for refunding the purchase price and domestic shipping. And eBay / PB are responsible for refunding the GSP program fees (international shipping, import fees, etc.).

 

In the case of a RETURN, keep in mind that the GSP does not support returns. In GSP transactions returns have to be worked out between Buyer and Seller, as in a non-GSP transaction.

 

Once again, sorry for all the confusion. And thanks fto the community for the “are you sure?” nudging.

 

---Ben

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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 6,908
Registered: ‎12-26-2002

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to bennett4612

****So just to be clear, with GSP transactions: in cases where the SELLER is at fault (SNAD, etc.) AND cases of “buyer’s remorse” – the SELLER is responsible for refunding the purchase price and domestic shipping. And eBay / PB are responsible for refunding the GSP program fees (international shipping, import fees, etc.).

 

In the case of a RETURN, keep in mind that the GSP does not support returns. In GSP transactions returns have to be worked out between Buyer and Seller, as in a non-GSP transaction.

 

Can you confirm that the buyer would pay for the return, as usual, by some tracked means, to the seller, who would then be able to authorise a refund of all the buyer's initial expense? This will work out pretty expensive for the buyer, but that's the same as any SNAD return. Can we take it that actioning the refund by the seller would automatically trigger the appropriate refund by the ebay/PB machine?

 

However, you do seem to have clarified what seemed a vague situation, so thanks for taking the time.

 

Now perhaps you could find out why certain media catagories are blocked to some countries against the wishes of sellers and for no good reason that anyone has been able to fathom. Find that out and you'll get a round of virtual applause. 

 

 

 

 

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af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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eBay Employee
Posts: 442
Registered: ‎08-20-2013

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to afantiques

Hi afantiques. 

 

Since returns are not supported through the GSP they should be handled in the same was as non-GSP transactions.

 

And yes, the eBay/PB refund should then proceed automatically.

 

In regards to your categories question, there is some news in this area. It should be made public by the end of the week or early next. 

 

Thanks.

 

---Ben

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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 6,908
Registered: ‎12-26-2002

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to bennett4612

In regards to your categories question, there is some news in this area. It should be made public by the end of the week or early next.

 

It has to be pretty earth shattering to be kept secret this long.

 

I am agog with excitement. I have rebooked my Dignitas appointment for a week later.

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af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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hondamedic
Community Member
Posts: 7,002
Registered: ‎06-05-2005

Re: GSP and returns.

in reply to afantiques

afantiques wrote:

 

 

Can you confirm that the buyer would pay for the return, as usual, by some tracked means, to the seller, who would then be able to authorise a refund of all the buyer's initial expense? 

 

 

 


 

I thought the rest of the world doesn't offer tracking that US ID's are so hung up on?

 


afantiques wrote:

And most importantly, eBay requires tracking to be available if you want buyers protection.

 

This in not true at all. Tracking can be a factor in seller protection, but it is worth less than nothing to buyers.

 


 

 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Besides.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

BBL: Blocked Bidder List... BIN: Buy It Now... BO: Best Offer... BR: Bid Retraction... DC: Delivery Confirmation

DSR: Detailed Seller Rating FB: Feedback FRB: Flat Rate Box FVF: Final Value Fee IPR: Immediate Payment Required

NARU: Not A Registered User OP: Original Poster OT: Off Topic PM: Priority Mail.... PS: Power Seller....

SNAD: Significantly Not As Described...... TRS: Top Rated Seller...... UIA: Unpaid Item Assistant..... UID: Unpaid Item Dispute
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