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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,367
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????


 


Thanks to reading this board, I was able to recognize the potential of this fork and spoon based on the hallmarks :-x. These were bought together from another dealer along with a sauce spoon marked whitemetal. Dealer had bundled the three together for one price. Consequently, I don't think they necessarily bear any relationship to each other. Spoon is just slightly over 8" long with a large bowl. Fork is  7 3/4"


 


Spoon is Russian - Moscow 1878 with Viktor Savinkov as assayer. 84 zolotnik or .875 silver quality. Maker may be V. Kokhendorfer but I have not been able to confirm this. Mark, though not completely legible, looks like BK to me. Any other possibilities?


 



 


The fork is a tough one. Seems to test for reasonable quality silver (acid turns black.... right?). Only one mark is anywhere legible. Second mark may be identical but could also be different. I have tried to look at this so many different ways. In some ways it looks like the # 12. I also see how it could be a an LQ. The first character could also be an F. I am not even sure I have got it right side up. Any other ideas? Any reason for the lack of full marks? Any significance to the zig zag T on the back? The only decoration on the front are 4 faint incised lines crossing the handle perpendicularly at uneven intervals. Also thought the shape of the tines odd.  


 


Pics are as good as I could get. Next to last is reversed. Last one is a scan.  I may try to sketch the mark if we can not make any progress here.


 



 



 



 


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figtree3
Community Member
Posts: 4,066
Registered: ‎06-04-2008

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

About the spoon and what the maker's initials might say--


 


I'm not sure that I can see the first one well enough.  The second one does look like a K.


 


Possibilities for the first letter are 


В (equivalent to V);  


З (equivalent to Z);  


Э or Е (both equivalent to E in transliteration; the latter one is sometimes transliterated as Ye, and the script version of the letter is curved rather than straight-sided.


 


I think it is most likely to be one of the first two.  The letter Э is not generally written with a curve in the middle, and the image of the spoon shows one.  The letter E, when written in script, does curve, but on the left-hand side... it looks like the reverse of the З.


 


So if it's the B, you have the right initials when looking into the possibility of V. Kokhendorfer.


 


Fig

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figtree3
Community Member
Posts: 4,066
Registered: ‎06-04-2008

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

What is scratched or etched into the stem of the spoon?  Is it letters or numbers?  (That won't really help you ID it but I wondered whether it could be somebody's initials.)


 


Fig

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bakersgma
Community Member
Posts: 38,174
Registered: ‎08-01-2006

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

The 12 on the fork, assuming that's what it is, although I'm not certain it is, would be for 12 loth - the old German and Prussia equivalent for .750 silver. The T might be where the piece was a scraped for assaying. It's quite oddly placed to be an actual T monogram.


 


 

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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,367
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Thanks for looking. The first letter in the maker's mark is definitely closed. Looks more like a slightly lopsided figure 8 than a B. Given the other options, it seems it has to be a B.


 


Here is the monogram.


 



 

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fidbald
Community Member
Posts: 2,766
Registered: ‎10-04-2006

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

agree. looks like a Tremolierstrich.

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fidbald
Community Member
Posts: 2,766
Registered: ‎10-04-2006

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

# 4 looks Hebrew

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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,367
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad


The 12 on the fork, assuming that's what it is, although I'm not certain it is, would be for 12 loth - the old German and Prussia equivalent for .750 silver. The T might be where the piece was a scraped for assaying. It's quite oddly placed to be an actual T monogram.


 


 


I had thought of the possibility of this being a loth mark. Would it be typical for a loth mark to be a fancy script numeral? Would a loth mark be present without any other marks? I am leaning toward the two marks being identical with one being very poorly struck. Hadn't thought about the T being an assayers, scraping/mark but it does make sense.

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bakersgma
Community Member
Posts: 38,174
Registered: ‎08-01-2006

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Brad - We need to get Sue to look at that fork. The loth marks and others that might or might not appear on Eastern European pieces are not my forte. Beyond what "12 loth" means chemically, I'm clueless.


 


 

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figtree3
Community Member
Posts: 4,066
Registered: ‎06-04-2008

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad


# 4 looks Hebrew



 


Yes, it does have similarities... it's definitely not Russian.


 


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afantiques
Community Member
Posts: 7,058
Registered: ‎12-26-2002

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Given the Hebrew initials and the date, possibly brought out of Russia by Jews fleeing the pogroms.


 


The other piece probably  Austrian, I have often seen those zig-zag assay marks, in this case I think the assayer was just fooling around with the T, maybe just fallen for a girl named Tess, who knows? There is not always a sensible and invariable reason for these things.

=============================================================
af," a reduntant, uneducated, diatribe spouting fool."
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finnclouds
Community Member
Posts: 42
Registered: ‎03-02-2008

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

The spoon is probably not by Bernhard Johann Kochendoerfer as he was earlier and in St. Petersburg. 


 


By coincidence, I found a little plate by him a couple of days ago at a flea market in Helsinki.   I saw a list of other BK's (VK's)  when I was researching for the maker of my plate.  I'll see if I can find it again.


 


As to the fork  with the 12 mark  -- agree with Fid and Bakers that it is probably 12 lothige or loth mark.  They are often quite like the one in your photos, not fancy scripts. Can't quite make out the other mark but it could be a letter for a city.  

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ladybranch
Community Member
Posts: 1,842
Registered: ‎07-18-2007

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad


 


Visilii Iv. Kangin is also a posibility.


 


Scroll down to the "VK." There are 2 for Kangin. Click the VKs to see pics. The pic of the 2nd one has the B looking almost like the number 8.


http://www.silvercollection.it/bis4russiansilverhallmarks.html


 


Have included a couple of edited pic of the mark in hopes of seeing it better.


 



 


I agree probably assaying marks; however, the weirds I've ever seen.


 


--- Susan


 




 


 

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707susang
Community Member
Posts: 3,358
Registered: ‎05-30-2010

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Hey guys!  That is a mid 19th century German/Prussian/Polish 12 loth mark, I believe.  The other is a city mark, but I can't make it out?  Assay zig-zag was common, although I haven't seen one shaped like a T, that I remember.


 


In the interest of learning, we need to figure out what that city mark is.  You may have to draw it, Brad.


 






Just plain Sue.
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ladybranch
Community Member
Posts: 1,842
Registered: ‎07-18-2007

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad


 


Oooppps,   ... weirdest...

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707susang
Community Member
Posts: 3,358
Registered: ‎05-30-2010

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Waving to Finn!!!!  






Just plain Sue.
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707susang
Community Member
Posts: 3,358
Registered: ‎05-30-2010

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Just for fun.....this is how the big boys work out a puzzle.  This is my fork but I got Chris to post it for me.  :-D


 


 


 


 


http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=19491&p=44586&hilit=ancient+fork#p44586






Just plain Sue.
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707susang
Community Member
Posts: 3,358
Registered: ‎05-30-2010

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Here's another old German piece with an assay zig-zag.


 


 


 photo 008-43.jpg






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finnclouds
Community Member
Posts: 42
Registered: ‎03-02-2008

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Waving back to Sue...


 


Lady  --- I think Kangin was also in St. Petersburg.  The fork was assayed in Moscow.  


 


I don't have the Bible of Russian silver, Postnikova -Loseva & can't find  the  photo of the VK page  from it that I found online last week.  But there were certainly other VK makers at that time and in Moscow.  

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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,367
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Re: Silver Fork & Sppon: Russian and ?????

in reply to verybrad

Thanks for all the help. Seems we are making progress.


 


Looks like Kokhendorfer is not an option, nor is Kangin.....  dates are wrong (1886-1908). This is who I had latched onto first before thinking Kokhendorfer. Probably doesn't matter all that much and I think I probably have enough info to list this.  


 


As for the fork, I am coming to the conclusion that it is a 12 loth mark. In looking and looking, the mark seems a bit squashed making it look like there is more to it than just a 12. As for the other mark, it is impossible. The best I can say is that it is the identical mark only even more squashed. There is no drawing it......... :smileyindifferent: In looking at old loth marked flatware, there seems to be little market on ebay. I found this large 41 g. spoon that sold for less than $19.00. Would think this is less than scrap (?). Other pieces did not sell.


 


http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-SILVER-SERVING-SPOON-12-LOTH-SILVER-19-C-GERMANY-1869-41-grams-/1810... 


 


If that is what I could expect, I will probably just throw this into a pile for scrap :-(


 


The spoon more than makes up for it. I bought the lot for $3.00 at a dealer's garage sale. I came around 4 hours into the sale and I believe she had tried to sell these at other places previously. Can't imagine that I would be the only one to recognize that there was value in them.  


 


As an aside, this is a perfect illustration of what my local market is like as discussed in the other thread. No recognition of value in a lot of things that are universally valued elsewhere. Makes for good buying opportunities but it is difficult to sell.

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