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skezeks42
Community Member
Posts: 2,194
Registered: ‎01-16-2003

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to deepseashadow
no

__________________________________________________________

Quidvis recte factum quamvis humile praeclarum
Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble.

Don

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deepseashadow
Community Member
Posts: 7,234
Registered: ‎11-12-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to verybrad

verybrad wrote:

When doing comparisons, you need to get as close to apples to apples as you can. I think you need to compare to early Victorian ornate silverplate sets. Certain styles are more in demand right now such as the Aesthetic period, Art Nouveau, and Art Deco. Do not compare to these sets. Also do not compare to sought after brands and patterns by certain makers. For example there are several Christofle sets that did well. This is a sought after maker so not a good comparison. I am also seeing several Reed and Barton sets with known patterns doing well. I would think this has more to do with wanting the particular pattern rather than any intrinsic value to Reed and Barton silverplate or general desireability.


That is not best practices, dating is a science not a slew of similarities. There has been no foundation laid that is based on facts thus far. Can I guess ?

HINC HVMILIBVS VENIA


HINC RETRIBVTO SVPERBIS















MISERICORDIAS DOMINI IN AETERNVM CANTABO AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
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deepseashadow
Community Member
Posts: 7,234
Registered: ‎11-12-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to 707susang

707susang wrote:

Based on several design elements without seeing another exact set, my best guess is right around 1860.

 

That guess is based on looking at all the examples of sets shown in Rainwater's American Silverplate book.  There is a Meriden Britannia Co. teapot on pg.105 with several similar design elements and dates to 1861.

 

I have little experience dated by style on my own.  All I can do is rely on given examples and marks that are datable. I have made many bad guesses in the past, so take it with a grain of salt.   

 

This being British and not American, would the style predate like American pieces?


What elements are you referring to ?

HINC HVMILIBVS VENIA


HINC RETRIBVTO SVPERBIS















MISERICORDIAS DOMINI IN AETERNVM CANTABO AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
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deepseashadow
Community Member
Posts: 7,234
Registered: ‎11-12-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to peidogpie

you need to adjust your camera color and make silver look silver not make it appear that it is brass, the adjustment is the white balance.

HINC HVMILIBVS VENIA


HINC RETRIBVTO SVPERBIS















MISERICORDIAS DOMINI IN AETERNVM CANTABO AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
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deepseashadow
Community Member
Posts: 7,234
Registered: ‎11-12-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to ladybranch

ladybranch wrote:

>as far as I know one can't tell a date from his silverplate marks or most silverplate markings.<

 

I apologize. I now see where you are getting the 1854 date, from that "Chronology: listing of the company name. I see it has Martin Hall & Co. (1854). As it has "Martin Hall & Co Ltd (1866-1936)" following, the "Martin Hall & Co" name was from 1854-1866. Now there is always a good possibility the MH & Co. stamp was used after 1866, and we are not sure just when or if they had a shield punch made with the addition of "Ltd." That page doesn't have an example of a shield punch with "Ltd." It does show a 4 lobe punch with Ltd. as part of a sterling mark. Your best bet would be to give a time date of 1854 - c1870s. Again want to stress do show us the item.

 

Hi, to Brad! Missed you in my previous reply.

 

--- Susan


that is a great piece of history, can you sum up what that means relative to the OP request ?

HINC HVMILIBVS VENIA


HINC RETRIBVTO SVPERBIS















MISERICORDIAS DOMINI IN AETERNVM CANTABO AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
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deepseashadow
Community Member
Posts: 7,234
Registered: ‎11-12-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to ladybranch

ladybranch wrote:

FWIW, I agree with Sue on it being one of Martin Hall's silverplate marks. I can make out the MH & Co. in the shield mark. Your marks look very similar to some of his silverplate marks on that page she had linked.

 

>I am almost sure it is from 1854.<

 

Hmmmm, as far as I know one can't tell a date from his silverplate marks or most silverplate markings. The British sterling hallmarks have a date code letter, but not the silverplate marks.  Possibly the letter markings in the shield might give a clue to a date, but seeing the item in its entirety is a very good way to judge timeframe.

 

>I don't know how to put up more than one picture at a time, can you help?<

 

Take Mikey's advise on using the green tree icon on the reply toolbar. It is the 2nd icon to the right of the smiley face. You really should crop and resize your pictures ***before** uploading/inserting/attaching to a message. They should not be over 250KB in weight and no wider than 600px. Many people will not bother to wait for such huge pictures to load resulting in the lost of advice/info.  Yours are:

Weight-wise: 1.13 MB = 1,165.63 KB = 1,193,601 bytes

Dimension-wise: 1,591px wide × 2,114px high (scaled to 812px wide × 1,079px high)

 

Hi, to Baker, Sue and Mikey!!!

 

--- Susan


what about the tea service. By'd away the ones having issues with such small files , it appears to me at least, that their systems are out of date due to hardware or software or both. There is a residend silver type on these boards you may want to wait before making any rash decisions.

HINC HVMILIBVS VENIA


HINC RETRIBVTO SVPERBIS















MISERICORDIAS DOMINI IN AETERNVM CANTABO AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
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deepseashadow
Community Member
Posts: 7,234
Registered: ‎11-12-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to 707susang

707susang wrote:

Based on several design elements without seeing another exact set, my best guess is right around 1860.

 

That guess is based on looking at all the examples of sets shown in Rainwater's American Silverplate book.  There is a Meriden Britannia Co. teapot on pg.105 with several similar design elements and dates to 1861.

 

I have little experience dated by style on my own.  All I can do is rely on given examples and marks that are datable. I have made many bad guesses in the past, so take it with a grain of salt.   

 

This being British and not American, would the style predate like American pieces?


the item has got a lot of crisp clean readable hallmarks , what do they decode to ? Do you know ?

HINC HVMILIBVS VENIA


HINC RETRIBVTO SVPERBIS















MISERICORDIAS DOMINI IN AETERNVM CANTABO AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
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deepseashadow
Community Member
Posts: 7,234
Registered: ‎11-12-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to peidogpie

when you see a lot of post that say waving , that translates in to board talk " we don't know, say somethink, anything but don't say we don't know"

HINC HVMILIBVS VENIA


HINC RETRIBVTO SVPERBIS















MISERICORDIAS DOMINI IN AETERNVM CANTABO AD MAJOREM DEI GLORIAM
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707susang
Community Member
Posts: 3,358
Registered: ‎05-30-2010

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to 707susang

Kudos to Brad for stretching his wings.........OXOXOX.






Just plain Sue.
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707susang
Community Member
Posts: 3,358
Registered: ‎05-30-2010

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to 916bulldogs123

My legal name is Susan.  I'm going to call my Mother and ask her again why she named me that?  I have been Susie in my growing up years, and Sue as an adult.  To call ME Susan, means I am in trouble, per my Mother.

 

I don't much care anymore accept my oldest daughter has started calling me...Sue.  In that context, there has never been a more uglier name.

 

I now change my name to Fairlight, for the next 5 minutes.  After that, I am "Just Plain Sue."






Just plain Sue.
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916bulldogs123
Community Member
Posts: 1,865
Registered: ‎08-29-2009

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to ladybranch

There are just too many Susan's on this board, could one or two of you change your name. lol   :smileyvery-happy:

 

Mikey

 

______________________________________________
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
Mark Twain
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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,451
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to verybrad

This looks to be the same pattern as yours ........... sold for $375.00

 

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/11399167_19th-c-martin-hall-and-co-silver-plate-tea-set-5pc

 

_____________________________________________________________

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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,451
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to ladybranch

I think the question was more about the set at over 5K that I gave the number to in current listings. 

_____________________________________________________________

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ladybranch
Community Member
Posts: 1,858
Registered: ‎07-18-2007

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to 707susang

>...similar design elements and dates to 1861...<

 

I also think around that time, Sue. I didn't realize there were still serious questions on the age of this set because of my reply (message #4) to the OP's suggestion of 1854 (message #6). The vicinity of the mid 1850s to the 1860s would certainly fit in with the company's chronological name changes that were listed on that link Sue supplied on Martin, Hall and Co. (message #3). The list on that webpage says that the company name was changed to "Martin Hall & Co (1854)" in 1854. I went on to say in my reply that the name was used from 1854 to 1866 when the name was changed again. The 1861 date on the design elements fits into that time slot. I would think a timeframe of 1854 to the 1860s would be apropriate.

 

>the one that is still up says Silver, but there are no hallmarks, is there something I'm missing.<

 

Silverplated or sterling can both be still called silver, but there needs to be a following discrimination between them with plated or sterling. British hallmarks are used on their silver that is **not** silverplated. Their hallmarks are used on their solid silver - like their .925 silver purity that is equal to our sterling.  The US doesn't use hallmarks. Hallmarks are used by many countries around the world. The silver service that Brad linked to is by Reed and Barton, an American company, meaning if it was sterling (which it is not) it would have no hallmarks because the US doesn't use them. The seller jazzed up the description with the words "...heavy .925 silver over." .925 is sterling silver but only a layer of it was used on top of another metal = silverplate. Silverplate consists of a layering of sterling silver on top of another metal.

--- Susan

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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,451
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to verybrad

When doing comparisons, you need to get as close to apples to apples as you can. I think you need to compare to early Victorian ornate silverplate sets. Certain styles are more in demand right now such as the Aesthetic period, Art Nouveau, and Art Deco. Do not compare to these sets. Also do not compare to sought after brands and patterns by certain makers. For example there are several Christofle sets that did well. This is a sought after maker so not a good comparison. I am also seeing several Reed and Barton sets with known patterns doing well. I would think this has more to do with wanting the particular pattern rather than any intrinsic value to Reed and Barton silverplate or general desireability.

_____________________________________________________________

Be sure to look your gift horse in the mouth when receiving help.
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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,451
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to peidogpie

I don't think you are missing anything. I think they are deluded that this is sterling despite contrary information. The asking price is beyond wishful thinking and I probably would not have posted it except it seems to be of similar age to yours and of an equally ornate pattern. 

_____________________________________________________________

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Community Member
Posts: 31
Registered: ‎06-05-2003

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to verybrad

Thank you for the information.  I looked at both sets,  the one that is still up says Silver, but there are no hallmarks, is there something I'm missing.  I am new at this, so I like to gather all the info I can get.  I am not in a hurry to get rid of it.  I'm watching it.

 

Thanks again for answering so quickly.

 

peidogpie

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707susang
Community Member
Posts: 3,358
Registered: ‎05-30-2010

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to verybrad

Based on several design elements without seeing another exact set, my best guess is right around 1860.

 

That guess is based on looking at all the examples of sets shown in Rainwater's American Silverplate book.  There is a Meriden Britannia Co. teapot on pg.105 with several similar design elements and dates to 1861.

 

I have little experience dated by style on my own.  All I can do is rely on given examples and marks that are datable. I have made many bad guesses in the past, so take it with a grain of salt.   

 

This being British and not American, would the style predate like American pieces?






Just plain Sue.
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verybrad
Community Member
Posts: 3,451
Registered: ‎04-17-2006

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to peidogpie

I am surprised you have not had any response to this as of yet. I am no expert on this kind of thing but will give it a stab. I don't see your mark information as being conclusive but this does look like it could be from the mid 19th century or just abit later based on style. I have been trying to pin down the style without much luck. I kind of get a Spanish vibe from this..... the best I can do.

 

Some of the Victorian silverplate services do pretty well on ebay. Others sell for less than $100.00. Older and ornate seems to be better than later and simple. The best comparable I could come up with in sold listings is this set.......

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/149-yrs-old-Antique-Civil-War-Era-Coffee-and-Tea-Pot-Set-of-5-Extremely-RARE...

 

Other than the pot on stand, I like your set better. I also think this looks over-polished to my eye. There is a nice larger old ornate set in current listings that someone is asking over 5K on (300934000146). It may be more comparabe in style to your set.  I see no evidence that it is sterling so I don't know where they are getting their asking price from. I am sure there are other sets you could do some comparisons to with a little more digging. 

   

_____________________________________________________________

Be sure to look your gift horse in the mouth when receiving help.
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Community Member
Posts: 31
Registered: ‎06-05-2003

Re: Martin Hall & Co. Coffee tea 4 pc service

in reply to 707susang

Sending pictures.  Hope it works!!Coffee/Tea SetCoffee/Tea SetCoffee/Tea SetCoffee/Tea SetCoffee/Tea SetCoffee/Tea Set

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